How important is an AVR's 'rated output' for movie watching?

[NewbieAudiophileExpert]

So yesterday I'm walking through my neighbourhood and about 800 meters away from my place, I'm walking past an apartment complex/building, where I heard somebody's music playing from the third or fourth floor, and boy did it sound very loud, so loud in fact that I'm surprised that the person was doing it, since I'd think somebody would put int a noise complaint.

Anyway, he must have been pumping at least 30-40 watts into each channel plus there must have been a sub, also.

I guess he had some rather neutral and non-offensive music playing - not techno, rap, or anything, so many people would enjoy it?

He must be an audiophile, because it sounded good, even from a distance.

Then it got me thinking about how many AVRs have all of these crazy output wattages - my own RX-V6A allegedes to have 100 watts per channel into two channels at only 0.06% THD.

Honestly, i keep it at -30 dbs at most, and even then it can be too loud, I'd think that just 6-7 watts into each front tower and 5 watts into the center, plus 2-3 watts into each rear/atmos speaker is completely sufficient for a good movie experience.

So it got me thinking about how important wattage rating actually is.

I've read a few forum posts in the recent days and seen a video or two where the Marantz NR1711 has been discussed, and everybody points to how it has 'only' 50 watts per channel into two channels, whilst realistically if during an action scene in 5.1, the amp is driving the fronts at 30 watts each, with the center having 20 watts and the rears having 10 watts each, this would sound obscene and offensive to many neighbours and family members.

Not even going to into the discussion about how crossing the other speakers over at 80Hz and letting the sub do the heavy lifting would further improve those 50 watts per channel, into 'something more' - we all know this.

In fact, had my V6A not cost me $950 AUD, instead of the NR1711's $1300 (on a good day) price tag, it probably would have been a better option, aesthetics and audio-quality wise - though the MusicCast app is quite good.

 

[Sancus]

People have pretty crazy different volume settings in my experience. I have never even seen -30 on my AVR, normal for me is -10 to -15 for TV/film, and -15 to -20 for music. Music is typically more compressed than multi-channel TV/film content so the average volume level is higher hence you need to turn it down. There are a lot of exceptions of course since unlike tv/film there are no loudness standards for music at all. I know plenty of people like it even louder than that.

Of course, i'm not using my AVRs amps. But there's no general answer to the topic question, you have to do the math yourself based on your measured listening levels and find out how much power you need. Guessing is just a big waste of time IMO.

 

[Beershaun]

Wattage has a lot to do with the music you are listening to and the speakers you have. The instantaneous power needs for music can be quiet high especially for mid and low bass frequencies where you are trying to move a lot of air with a large driver. So chamber music may only use 10-20 watts of power due to the limited frequency range but bass heavy EDM or movie special effects may require hundreds of watts or power instantaneously to produce the same volume level for lower frequencies.

One interesting example is the new KEG LS60 floor stander. It has built in amps for each driver and they add up to a substantial amount of power. They give you a Sense what the designers felt was adequate for each driver.

 

[Beershaun]

Here is an example video that really drove home the point for me.

 

[NewbieAudiophileExpert]

People have pretty crazy different volume settings in my experience. I have never even seen -30 on my AVR, normal for me is -10 to -15 for TV/film, and -15 to -20 for music. Music is typically more compressed than multi-channel TV/film content so the average volume level is higher hence you need to turn it down. There are a lot of exceptions of course since unlike tv/film there are no loudness standards for music at all. I know plenty of people like it even louder than that.

Of course, i'm not using my AVRs amps. But there's no general answer to the topic question, you have to do the math yourself based on your measured listening levels and find out how much power you need. Guessing is just a big waste of time IMO.

I've heard that the Yamaha V6A is at reference volume at -16.5 dbs, though I'm not sure - i've never really taken it below -24 dbs.

That's what I mean though, it seems that some people will blast music, and others will enjoy it as a very moderate volume.

Wattage has a lot to do with the music you are listening to and the speakers you have. The instantaneous power needs for music can be quiet high especially for mid and low bass frequencies where you are trying to move a lot of air with a large driver. So chamber music may only use 10-20 watts of power due to the limited frequency range but bass heavy EDM or movie special effects may require hundreds of watts or power instantaneously to produce the same volume level for lower frequencies.

One interesting example is the new KEG LS60 floor stander. It has built in amps for each driver and they add up to a substantial amount of power. They give you a Sense what the designers felt was adequate for each driver.

Yeah, but isn't the subwoofer going to do most of the heavy lifting? Even then, the '800 watt' subwoofer is usually just 200 or 150 watts RMS, with the driver's voice coil being the main bottleneck in how much power can be consumed - never in hell would any 12 inch driver's voice coil be able to sustain a full 100 watt load for longer than 30 seconds, let alone 800 watts continuously LOL.

Same thing for AVRs - they can provide more than the 'rated amount' when needed, just not RMS.

 

[escape2]

I've heard that the Yamaha V6A is at reference volume at -16.5 dbs, though I'm not sure

When properly calibrated, reference volume at MLP should be achieved when volume knob is at 0 dB.

But then again, signal voltage varies greatly from source to source and from one movie/song to another.

 

[NewbieAudiophileExpert]

When properly calibrated, reference volume at MLP should be achieved when volume knob is at 0 dB.

But then again, signal voltage varies greatly from source to source and from one movie/song to another.

Yeah, I don't know about that mate, 0.00dbs on a V6A may be reference, but i wouldn't do that unless i really had to or had like a really big room or something

 

[escape2]

Again, when properly calibrated, reference volume at MLP should be achieved when volume knob is at 0 dB, regardless if your room is big or small.

With that said, my guess is that most of us typically listen below that level.

 

[Beershaun]

I've heard that the Yamaha V6A is at reference volume at -16.5 dbs, though I'm not sure - i've never really taken it below -24 dbs.

That's what I mean though, it seems that some people will blast music, and others will enjoy it as a very moderate volume.


Yeah, but isn't the subwoofer going to do most of the heavy lifting? Even then, the '800 watt' subwoofer is usually just 200 or 150 watts RMS, with the driver's voice coil being the main bottleneck in how much power can be consumed - never in hell would any 12 inch driver's voice coil be able to sustain a full 100 watt load for longer than 30 seconds, let alone 800 watts continuously LOL.

Same thing for AVRs - they can provide more than the 'rated amount' when needed, just not RMS.

The subwoofer will handle whatever is below the crossover frequency. Usually 80hz. So yes it will have the most demand placed on it. But it still takes a lot of power to handle the mid bass above 80hz. RMS is a useful measure to compare amplifiers to each other, but it's not useful for actually understanding the actual power usage when listening to music. It's, again, driven by the music and the speakers and the listening level. CEA 2006/490A burst power test measurements tell you what your amplifier is capable of when required.

As far as actual usage, you need a power meter or a way to calculate the power required to generate various tones at specific SPL to really understand how much power you need or are actually using.

 

[Chrispy]

What rated output particularly? Avr manufacturers don't really provide much and you need to look at third party testing....and still need to consider just how important that particular spec is....in general for movie watching in a surround mode I don't think it's particularly important as long as you get decently clean output at your listening levels/distances....

ps but looking above, yes, could make a difference in using subs or not, but can't see why anyone wouldn't use subs myself....that's just how I think

 

[valerianf]

The need for an increase of the power output is obvious if no sub is used: the room correction software (i.e. Dirac) will increase the power sent in the low frequency range to try to get a flat response curve.
Then the AVR needs to have a beefier amp section or an external power amp need to be used.

 

[NewbieAudiophileExpert]

Again, when properly calibrated, reference volume at MLP should be achieved when volume knob is at 0 dB, regardless if your room is big or small.

With that said, my guess is that most of us typically listen below that level.

Hmm thanks for sharing that info - it's good to know.

What volume do you usually turn your avr to and which AVR brand and model do you posses?

The subwoofer will handle whatever is below the crossover frequency. Usually 80hz. So yes it will have the most demand placed on it. But it still takes a lot of power to handle the mid bass above 80hz. RMS is a useful measure to compare amplifiers to each other, but it's not useful for actually understanding the actual power usage when listening to music. It's, again, driven by the music and the speakers and the listening level. CEA 2006/490A burst power test measurements tell you what your amplifier is capable of when required.

As far as actual usage, you need a power meter or a way to calculate the power required to generate various tones at specific SPL to really understand how much power you need or are actually using.

Yeah, but surely diverting frequencies 80Hz and below to the sub will have a drastic impact on the power consumed by the AVR'r amplifier? It's my understanding that the frequencies from 20 - 60 Hz that use up the most energy?

Personally, I have my yammy V6A set to extra-bass and speakers set to large - the reason that I do this, is because I have plenty of power to spare.

Although it does not sound half bad with the speakers set to small and crossed over at 80Hz.

What rated output particularly? Avr manufacturers don't really provide much and you need to look at third party testing....and still need to consider just how important that particular spec is....in general for movie watching in a surround mode I don't think it's particularly important as long as you get decently clean output at your listening levels/distances....

ps but looking above, yes, could make a difference in using subs or not, but can't see why anyone wouldn't use subs myself....that's just how I think

Well the rated power is the power they specify on their website - the marantz is able to do 50ish watts into two channels at most without there being too much distortion.

The need for an increase of the power output is obvious if no sub is used: the room correction software (i.e. Dirac) will increase the power sent in the low frequency range to try to get a flat response curve.
Then the AVR needs to have a beefier amp section or an external power amp need to be used.

I think everybody running 5 speakers ends up using a sub for the 0.1

 

[Chrispy]

Hmm thanks for sharing that info - it's good to know.

What volume do you usually turn your avr to and which AVR brand and model do you posses?

Yeah, but surely diverting frequencies 80Hz and below to the sub will have a drastic impact on the power consumed by the AVR'r amplifier? It's my understanding that the frequencies from 20 - 60 Hz that use up the most energy?

Personally, I have my yammy V6A set to extra-bass and speakers set to large - the reason that I do this, is because I have plenty of power to spare.

Although it does not sound half bad with the speakers set to small and crossed over at 80Hz.



Well the rated power is the power they specify on their website - the marantz is able to do 50ish watts into two channels at most without there being too much distortion.


I think everybody running 5 speakers ends up using a sub for the 0.1

Read the article I linked to here then spend some time actually learning how it all relates....

 

[valerianf]

"I think everybody running 5 speakers ends up using a sub for the 0.1"
Not for me, i have some tall tower speakers that are running in Large mode.
For now i am using a Yamaha RX A700 with "double bass"activated.
With some more tweaks the sound is satisfying.

But I wanted to replace the Yamaha with a Onkyo RZ50 and alas it will never do the job.
Some tests are indicating that the RZ50 have very sensitive nanies that will be engaged without any indication.
Many post of users are complaining about the poor sound of the RZ50 when cranking up the volume on the internal amps.

Hopefully Amir noticed this issue during his tests.
It is why it is important to add another specification/test to the usual ones.
It may be a high current measurement on a low load (i.e. : 2 Ohm).
This is something that do not exist on the characteristics published by the manufacturers.

Now I have to wait for a RZ70/90 if they will ever be launched one day!

 

[NewbieAudiophileExpert]

Read the article I linked to here then spend some time actually learning how it all relates....

Ahh thanks for the link, that calculator sure does offer some insight to me conundrums

"I think everybody running 5 speakers ends up using a sub for the 0.1"
Not for me, i have some tall tower speakers that are running in Large mode.
For now i am using a Yamaha RX A700 with "double bass"activated.
With some more tweaks the sound is satisfying.

But I wanted to replace the Yamaha with a Onkyo RZ50 and alas it will never do the job.
Some tests are indicating that the RZ50 have very sensitive nanies that will be engaged without any indication.
Many post of users are complaining about the poor sound of the RZ50 when cranking up the volume on the internal amps.

Hopefully Amir noticed this issue during his tests.
It is why it is important to add another specification/test to the usual ones.
It may be a high current measurement on a low load (i.e. : 2 Ohm).
This is something that do not exist on the characteristics published by the manufacturers.

Now I have to wait for a RZ70/90 if they will ever be launched one day!

Yeah I also ran my set up in 5.0.2 mode for a few months before settling for a SB1000.

It sounded great, that's for sure - but that's because my fronts have a sealed upper portion that houses the tweeter and mid woofer and a separate, ported woofer..

Yeah that Onkyo does look good, the only thing is that it costs $2500 AUD and my V6A only cost $950 AUD, which is quite a steal.

 

[Head_Unit]

Yeah, but surely diverting frequencies 80Hz and below to the sub will have a drastic impact on the power consumed by the AVR'r amplifier? It's my understanding that the frequencies from 20 - 60 Hz that use up the most energy?

Hmmmm. Yes that is the conventional wisdom. Actual DATA...has anyone seen any? I have seen some spectrum traces and yes there is a chunk down at the bottom. But that doesn't really matter. The PEAKS are what matter, so are there loud portions of music/film that eat up the headroom and don't contain much bass? I gotta get some kind of software for analyzing...

 

[Chrispy]

Hmm thanks for sharing that info - it's good to know.

What volume do you usually turn your avr to and which AVR brand and model do you posses?

Yeah, but surely diverting frequencies 80Hz and below to the sub will have a drastic impact on the power consumed by the AVR'r amplifier? It's my understanding that the frequencies from 20 - 60 Hz that use up the most energy?

Personally, I have my yammy V6A set to extra-bass and speakers set to large - the reason that I do this, is because I have plenty of power to spare.

Although it does not sound half bad with the speakers set to small and crossed over at 80Hz.



Well the rated power is the power they specify on their website - the marantz is able to do 50ish watts into two channels at most without there being too much distortion.


I think everybody running 5 speakers ends up using a sub for the 0.1

Which Marantz are you referring to? One of the slim-line models for that kind of rating? I wouldn't bother with one of those except if space/room were very limited.

Not a fan of extra bass when you have capable subwoofage/speakers....as to how much amp power it saves from an avr/speaker....probably not as much as many imply.

I can't imagine not using subs (and not just one).

 

[dlaloum]

The Question "How much power" is way too single dimensional to cover what should be covered...

What impedance are the speakers you are planning on driving, what does their impedance / phase look like, and what sort of demands does it place on the power amps?

If we needed a single additional value, in addition to 8 ohm "power" - I would suggest that we need to know what the Current capabilities of the AVR power supply is...

Preferably we should see power output specifications at 8, 4 and 2 ohm (the 2 ohm value tells the available current story!)

Or even better, a graph like this should show what an amp really is capable of! :

On a chart like this one, you can see continuous as well as instantaneous (peak) power capabilities at different impedances.

You can compare it to a speaker impedance chart... and if your woofer is down at 3 ohm - you can cross compare here, and determine, what SPL's you can achieve realistically with the specific amp and your specific speakers.

With the specs as provided by both speaker manufacturers and amp/avr manufacturers today, it's a complete crap shoot - you have no idea what the speakers impedance chart looks like, and no idea what the amps are capable of.

(This chart is from a Quad 606 manual)

 

[Chrispy]

The Question "How much power" is way too single dimensional to cover what should be covered...

What impedance are the speakers you are planning on driving, what does their impedance / phase look like, and what sort of demands does it place on the power amps?

If we needed a single additional value, in addition to 8 ohm "power" - I would suggest that we need to know what the Current capabilities of the AVR power supply is...

Preferably we should see power output specifications at 8, 4 and 2 ohm (the 2 ohm value tells the available current story!)

Or even better, a graph like this should show what an amp really is capable of! :

View attachment 230799

On a chart like this one, you can see continuous as well as instantaneous (peak) power capabilities at different impedances.

You can compare it to a speaker impedance chart... and if your woofer is down at 3 ohm - you can cross compare here, and determine, what SPL's you can achieve realistically with the specific amp and your specific speakers.

With the specs as provided by both speaker manufacturers and amp/avr manufacturers today, it's a complete crap shoot - you have no idea what the speakers impedance chart looks like, and no idea what the amps are capable of.

(This chart is from a Quad 606 manual)

Then again audible differences....

 

[RayDunzl]

A little louder doesn't take much more "power", until it does...

For example, the back of the nakkin calculations say: