How holographic can a soundstage be?

[Deleted member 28849]

Roger Water's "Amused to Death" has Q Sound encoding which can place sound as convincingly around behind you, you'd think there were actual surround speakers. Chesky Records has some recordings which can also do this. The trick to hearing this level of imaging is to have as little of the room influencing the sound as possible. Place your speakers well out into the room, about 1/3rd of the room from all walls and sit well away from any wall. Generally, more directional speakers are able to isolate the sound of the recording from reflections from the room, and thus convey the imaging which is actually in the recording verses what is added from the room. Room sound can produce 'envelopment', but this is not the sound of the recording - its the sound of the room. In a strict sense, I'd call room sound 'distortion'.

I agree that it's a room sound but I would not call it 'distortion'. More like a lively live like sound.

Like I said I work at a casino, this was at the old location. So we had Musicians walking around the Floor, don't recall the instruments, accordion and something else. Anyway their sound had a quality to it I seldom hear from live bands. I would say it had something to do with treble frequencies and room reflections. IMO that is the sound that I try to replicate with my stereo.

 

[MattHooper]

My MBL Omnis produced the most holographic 3D soundstage imaging I've experienced. One way to describe the presentation is that, reletive to the MBLs, images from other speakers tended to certainly be arrayed from L to R and front to back, but the soundfield sort of stopped at the images...almost like "images pinned to a backdrop." With the MBLs there was an added sense of space not only between me and, say, the image of a sax, but of space behind the sax as well, like the room expanded behind and beyond the instrument. This gave imaging a more rounded "3D" or holographic impression, IMO. I infer this is likely due to the way the omni radiates in to the room.

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

My Magnepans can be pretty darn good at soundstaging and imaging. I like playing Approaching Pavonis Mons by Balloon by The Flaming Lips.

Also, using the Carver C9 in the signal chain cancels out inter-aural crosstalk and enhances this effect even more.

I used to agree, before waveguide and the Harmon curve.

 

[Joecarrow]

As another user mentioned, BACCH is probably it. It uses a microphone placed inside each ear to characterize your HRTF as you move your head to a few positions then it tracks your face with a webcam, and it alters the signal for crosstalk cancellation. I think it does some room related correction too, but I might not have all of that straight. The demo I heard was using a pair of LS50, and it was fairly jaw dropping with binaural content. I have never before experienced such specific localization of sound sources in 3D space without wearing headphones. It was uncanny, like being in a Star Trek holodeck. I own a set of LX521 and have heard them in rooms more optimal than my own, but this was something else. I roll my eyes when people say a new gadget is full of superlatives and needs to be heard to be understood, but that’s the case here. I haven’t heard other crosstalk cancellation schemes, I understand there are some large Polk speakers that do something along those lines, but this one does seem like a new paradigm. I look forward to it trickling down to more accessible products.

 

[LTig]

As another user mentioned, BACCH is probably it. It uses a microphone placed inside each ear to characterize your HRTF as you move your head to a few positions then it tracks your face with a webcam, and it alters the signal for crosstalk cancellation. I think it does some room related correction too, but I might not have all of that straight. The demo I heard was using a pair of LS50, and it was fairly jaw dropping with binaural content.

Would BAACH work for standard (non binaural) recordings as well? If not how do they sound?

 

[Vuki]

One old audiophile's thoughts about topic

 

[Joecarrow]

Would BAACH work for standard (non binaural) recordings as well? If not how do they sound?

Yes, it certainly does. My time was limited and I didn't have a carefully curated playlist to show all of the possibilities, but for standard stereo recordings it seemed that it could present things spatially as expected; in a field roughly in front of you, but with a bit more tendency to extend wider and deeper than I would have expected. A Radiohead song (which obviously contains processed sounds far from what would be representative of a plausible scene) seemed to wrap all the way around to behind me, though it didn't seem to have a lot of vertical displacement.

I mention the binaural recordings so much because of how specific they were, spatially. Like I could say "that voice sounds like it's coming from three feet to the left of the left speaker, two feet behind it, and a bit lower than the ground". This was a bit disorienting with my eyes open, but with them closed it felt like virtual reality presentation.

This was just my impression based on a demo of an hour or so. I don't know if other more (or less) trained listeners may form a different impression, but it made enough of an impression on me that I wanted to relate my experience with it here.

 

[bigjacko]

For those people talking about speaker and room, how far do you put the speaker to the wall? Do you use any diffusion or absorption on any walls?

 

[Deleted member 28849]

For those people talking about speaker and room, how far do you put the speaker to the wall? Do you use any diffusion or absorption on any walls?

Due to room limitations my speakers are up against the wall and I use an unconventional setup. I have diffusion panels placed along the entire bottom portion of the room. And the rafters in the room would also serve as diffusion for the ceiling. Floor is a false floor of plywood covered with area rugs. My back wall is concrete bricks and front wall is plywood chip board. Side wall is also concrete with diffusion panels over top and the other wall has the door opening and stairwell. In the stairwell I have placed a thick bass absorption panel.

 

[audiophile]

For those people talking about speaker and room, how far do you put the speaker to the wall? Do you use any diffusion or absorption on any walls?

1.3 meters from the wall behind the speakers. Some absorption on side walls.

 

[richard12511]

To my ears the sound of the Ares II is indistinguishable from my Hegel H120…

Ralf

Sell the Ares II(great resale value) and use this as a learning lesson . Be thankful that you're not overly susceptible to placebo. DACs shouldn't alter the sound at all unless they are exceptionally terrible, and even then it will usually be some tiny .5dB difference at 18kHz that only a child can hear. You certainly shouldn't be hearing soundstage differences between DACs, and people that do are almost certainly(imo) being tricked by placebo.

Assuming that both the H120 and Ares II are of at least decent quality, it doesn't surprise me that you heard no difference. So far no one has been able to demonstrate the audibility of anything that isn't easily explained by simple measurement. Even the $9 apple dongle is already essentially perfect(beyond the limits of human hearing). <-- see if you can pass that test.

Learning that electronics more or less all sound the same did take some of the fun away for me, at first. Long term, though, it was the best knowledge I've ever gained. It allows me to spend my audio budget on things that actually do change the sound(speakers, subs, headphones, room, DSP, and needed power).

 

[Berlin]

Sell the Ares II(great resale value) and use this as a learning lesson .

I already did, even though I liked the design of the board very much...

Assuming that both the H120 and Ares II are of at least decent quality, it doesn't surprise me that you heard no difference.

I purchased a pair of new speakers last year. In the store I asked my dealer to connect a Hegel 120 to them so that I could be sure that my Hegel at home will also be able to drive them. At the end of the listening session I asked my dealer to connect a Hegel H590to the same speakers. I expected to hear tremendously improvement in sound quality. However, I could not hear any difference at all as compared to the H120. I looked at my dealer and said "To be honest, to me they almost sound the same.". I could tell from his face that he also couldn't hear any difference. After a second or so he said "Well, the 590 can play louder and we would hear a difference if we would connect it to the speakers over there." He was pointing to a pair of very expensive KEF speakers. I do not remember the model...

Learning that electronics more or less all sound the same did take some of the fun away for me, at first. Long term, though, it was the best knowledge I've ever gained. It allows me to spend my audio budget on things that actually do change the sound(speakers, subs, headphones, room, DSP, and needed power).

I totally agree with you... I like the design of my Hegel H120 and I like to only have one device that is connected to my speakers. What I do not like is that it is too expensive (considering its performance) and that it still does not support Airplay II. I also needed to connect as Raspberry Pi to it so that I can play music gaplessly via UPnP...

 

[Snarfie]

I like my stereo set-up. To my ears music sounds great and instruments/vocal are nicely separated two-dimensionally . In order to test the three-dimensional presentation of my set-up, I played a Chesky Audiophile Test Recording. According to this recording my set-up is capable of generating the illusion of a three dimensional stage. However, when I am listening to music I have so far never experienced a three dimensional/holographic separation of vocals and instruments. Am I expecting too much when it comes to soundstage depth? What would be a good track to test that?

BTW, because of so many excellent reviews of the Denafrips Ares II, I ordered one from Singapur. According to the reviews, the Ares II is supposed to be capable of presenting music similar to a tube amplifier with lots of spacial/ambient information. Unfortunately I cannot reproduce the reviewers’ impressions. To my ears the sound of the Ares II is indistinguishable from my Hegel H120…



Ralf

Imo there are many aspects to create a 3d soundstage. To name a few:

1. Is the recording containing a soundstage. Is the information there.

2. Is your room acoustics capeble to create a soundstage.

3 if not do you use dsp to correct room modes an time alignment/ phase coherent behaviour of you speakers

If not buy a measuring mic an measure.

4. Are you making use of time alignment/ phase coherent speakers design from a hardware point of view.

5. Last but not least placement of speakers.

 

[dasdoing]

depth is in the ambience of the source. you will percieve more of it the less your own room ambience is masking it

 

[Senior NEET Engineer]

Holographic soundstage is impossible without proper speaker and chair placement. Try Cardas method, that’s what I use:

http://www.cardas.com/room_setup_main.php

Snake oil cable salesman aren't a great resource for room acoustics imo

 

[Emulator II]

Regarding soundstage and depth this is one of my all time favourites:

Bugge Wesseltoft - Heim

 

[Blaspheme]

Imo there are many aspects to create a 3d soundstage. To name a few:

1. Is the recording containing a soundstage. Is the information there.

2. Is your room acoustics capeble to create a soundstage.

3. if not do you use dsp to correct room modes and time alignment/ phase coherent behaviour of you speakers. If not buy a measuring mic and measure.

4. Are you making use of time alignment/ phase coherent speakers design from a hardware point of view.

5. Last but not least placement of speakers.

Good list.

Sadly, Stereophile's otherwise comprehensive glossary lacks any guidance on specific meanings for 'holographic'. I've seen it most commonly/correctly used to describe a combination of both adequate soundstage and imaging specificity. I other words, stereo (using the original meaning of the latter term: a method of sound reproduction that recreates a multi-directional, 3-dimensional audible perspective). Holographic means stereo image. The soundstage should have breadth, depth and height. Sonic elements within the soundstage should be correctly characterised in terms of location, focus and separation (as applicable). If your stereo isn't doing this on suitable recorded material, then address deficiencies in room, setup, hardware and so on.

Beyond the basics though, there are different interpretations here. Some are thinking of primarily of envelopment. Others are thinking more imaging, or soundstage breadth/depth, or simply 'sounds coming from different places'. A setup with speakers either side of the listener will do the latter, but not reproduce a stereo image. There are anecdotes of successful holography from omni speakers and from directional speakers here as well (I have most experience with the latter, but not much with the former). Soundstage size is another variable: a system can reconstruct a smaller stereo image between the speakers, or a larger image that extends beyond them (both are valid, I prefer the latter).

A potentially confounding factor is that some measure stereophonic satisfaction in terms of reproduction of recorded live acoustic performances. I don't listen to this type of music much, but giving it primacy over artificially assembled soundstages is partly a matter of musical taste, but also an anachronism that underrates studio/production artistry.

Finally I think success also depends on the listeners ear/brain reconstruction. Soundstage awareness is an evolutionary characteristic of our hearing system, but stereo is encoded: analogous to those magic eye pictures of yore. Once you get them they snap into place. A stereo image—given the right conditions—does much the same thing.

 

[Sir Sanders Zingmore]

Would BAACH work for standard (non binaural) recordings as well? If not how do they sound?

My experience with BACCH is that it’s impact varies depending on the recording. Some of jazz recordings from the ‘50s and ‘60s are astounding. Some electronica as well. Live recordings too, the recording certainly doesn’t need to be binaural.

The impact for me ranges from very small to astounding, and subjectively I’m yet to hear anything sounding unnatural.

 

[Blaspheme]

Snake oil cable salesman aren't a great resource for room acoustics imo

Beware the poisoning the well fallacy. How the commentator earns a crust and the extent to which their setup advice is useful are independent variables. I've earned a crust through fair means and foul over the years. My knowledge and experience with speaker placement has had its own trajectory.

 

[Emlin]

Good list.

If your stereo isn't doing this on suitable recorded material, then address deficiencies in room, setup, hardware and so on.

.

I totally agree. If it's in the recording, and it is in least every one that I've heard, and if you aren't hearing it, there's something wrong.

The problem with this, I think, is that some people simply don't expect to hear it, so don't listen out for it. If they did, they would pay more attention to their rooms and speakers.