How holographic can a soundstage be?

[toddverrone]

Try this one:

A couple of things that IME help create the effect: Make sure side wall reflections are symmetrical (same distance & material).

Listening setup is an equilateral triangle (the distance between speakers is exactly the same as the distance from each speaker to listening position).

And as @Jas0_0 mentioned, DSP makes a difference. EQ speakers individually, correct phase (from 100Hz->). You can try Dirac, Audiolense, Acourate, Focus Fidelity or do it manually with REW + rePhase.

Yosi is incredible at sound design. His newest album (https://yosihorikawa.bandcamp.com/album/spaces) is slightly less sound design flex and a bit more music-focused while still keeping the same attention to detail. It's always nice to discover others who enjoy the same music!

 

[Pegwill]

Hi Guys

I have yet to try this, some of you may have heard it before it’s called the ‘Waterloo’ effect after the Kinks famous hit ‘Waterloo Sunset’
You can read about here

https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/thre...-improve-your-stereo-playback-with-it.320990/

Regards

 

[Deleted member 28849]

Pipeline by Stevie Ray Vaughan & Dick Dale has holographic imaging if you can play it loud.

 

[jeffbook]

Best holographic soundstage I have heard was 'Jeff Beck Live At Ronnie Scott's' through Linkwitz LX521

it was initially disconcerting as my ears were telling me I was standing somewhere near the back of said club whereas my eyes were telling me I was seeing a blank wall and two odd-looking loudspeakers.

Afterwards I bought the album, even though I am not much of a Jeff Beck fan, just to see how my system would compare. Short answer - it didn't.

My experience too when I heard the LX521 at RMAF in Linkwitz's room in 2015. I also heard the LXmini at that time, which was very close to the LX521in 3-D imaging, but with lower volume capability. But in a smaller room, the LXmini does the job, particularly when combined with dipole subwoofers.

 

[LTig]

I like my stereo set-up. To my ears music sounds great and instruments/vocal are nicely separated two-dimensionally . In order to test the three-dimensional presentation of my set-up, I played a Chesky Audiophile Test Recording. According to this recording my set-up is capable of generating the illusion of a three dimensional stage. However, when I am listening to music I have so far never experienced a three dimensional/holographic separation of vocals and instruments. Am I expecting too much when it comes to soundstage depth? What would be a good track to test that?

Try good Q-Sound processed recordings like:

• Sting - The Soul Cages
• Roger Waters - Amused to Death

 

[Gorgonzola]

It's certainly my subjective perception that tube equipment can add some "holographic" effect to the music; or as someone defined it, a "layered soundstage". Perhaps its the tube per se or may be it's just a matter of the high 2nd/3rd harmonic distortion that is higher in these device ... Or maybe it's just the listeners imagination.

The thing to understand, though, is that this so-called holographic effect is an artifact, it doesn't exist on the recording itself.

Personally, (as I perceive it), ultra-low distortion components such as my Topping D90 DAC and Purifi amplifier are best at reproducing the "air" i.e. natural reverberations and sense of space, that are there on the best recordings -- and don't need to be created by artifice.

 

[Jackpine]

I achieved it once for a couple months. Turns out I had hooked up my speakers out of phase.

 

[Deleted member 28849]

Check this one out. Hard for me to say if it's holographic as it is so well recorded that it has an enveloping effect in my room.
Ever So Lonely by Monsoon

 

[Ron Texas]

Spock, I'll be on the holodeck if you need me.

 

[Jas0_0]

Thought parts of my previous post on another thread had relevance here:

I liked my valve (sorry I’m British) pre amp. According to Stereophile it measured abysmally, but the reviewer said it sounded amazing and back then I didn’t care for measurements. To me it sounded all lovely and liquid and smooth with this 3D holographic soundstage you could almost reach out and touch.

To convince myself I’d bought the right thing I’d tried removing it from my system and going straight from RME DAC to power amp a couple of times. Each time I was convinced something was missing so always put it back in.

Then one night I got stoned on some edibles sold to me by the guy who cuts my hair.

I was listening to a dub record. First I tried it DAC to valve pre to power amp to speakers. Then I removed the pre and went direct from DAC to power amp.

When the valve pre was removed, to my stoned mind, it was as if someone had taken all the components of the music that were swirling in a cozy but ill-defined cloud in front of the speakers, fixed them in place, and given them a little polish.

I never listened using the valve pre again, and I sold it soon afterwards.

This was around the time I discovered AudioScienceReview and began to understand the significance of measurements. My system is now far far cheaper and sounds far far better. Thank god for AudioScienceReview and thank god for edibles.

I think instead of insisting on blind testing, we should promote stoned testing.

 

[Jimbob54]

Thought this previous post of mine on another thread had relevance here:

So good you quoted it twice!

 

[Jas0_0]

So good you quoted it twice!

Haha was trying to fix it before anyone saw...

 

[Berlin]

Then one night I got stoned on some edibles sold to me by the guy who cuts my hair.

I hope that the lady who cuts my hair might also sell me the right edibles. If not, maybe I could try her shampoo....?

 

[audiophile]

Holographic soundstage is impossible without proper speaker and chair placement. Try Cardas method, that’s what I use:

http://www.cardas.com/room_setup_main.php

 

[Blumlein 88]

I'd say the most accurate is crossed figure 8's if you have the speakers right. For this the optimum position is with your speakers 90 degrees apart. Most other people only shoot for something like 60 degrees as the angle the speakers make.

 

[Daverz]

The "Decca tree" recording method could reproduce an uncanny sense of space. But I never made it to the Sofiensaal before it burned down, so I can't say how accurate it is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decca_tree

An example:

(I'm not going to give a YT link of dubious fidelity, but you can find this Rosumunde there.)

Unfortunately, Decca also indulged in a lot of spot miking in the 70s, so they can't be given a blanket recommendation for recording accuracy.

EDIT: I guess I should read my own links.

"when you have that many spaced omnidirectional microphones you lose a lot of the directional cues, which is absolutely right, the way that we would deal with that was we would pan the left and right tree half left and half right, and the outrigger mics we would pan hard left and right and we would paint an artificial stereo image. [...] The reason we did this and consistently did it and got away with it and got wonderful reviews and many many awards was simply that the localisation cues were missing, but the sound was fantastic."

Ha! Although the technique varied quite a bit, so I don't know if that sort of artificial imaging was going on in the Rosamunde recording above.

 

[Deleted member 28849]

It seems to me when discussing holographic imaging there is a difference in semantics. What many are referring to is what I call a phantom stereo image. What I am referring to is a 3D like phantom stereo image that has an omnidirectional quality to it and is enveloping.

Now your room and stereo setup is a huge factor in getting the phantom stereo image. But I find recording few and far between that have a 3D holographic type imaging. I also find with these 3D type recordings that you have to excite the room to hear it, which means playing music loud 95+decibels range.

Years ago I experimented with having speakers perpendicular to my chair and the sound seem to be coming from the cul de sac in my room, kind of 3D but it wasn't a practical setup. I also heard a 3D type sound at my girlfriends place where she had the speakers placed in an unconventional manner and sound reflected off the walls in such an manner to create a 3D phantom stereo image where her sofa was placed. So what I am saying is stereo imaging has a lot to do with how your room is reflecting the sound and not so much speakers. As the speakers my girlfriend was using were the ones I sold to her.

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

Roger Water's "Amused to Death" has Q Sound encoding which can place sound as convincingly around behind you, you'd think there were actual surround speakers. Chesky Records has some recordings which can also do this. The trick to hearing this level of imaging is to have as little of the room influencing the sound as possible. Place your speakers well out into the room, about 1/3rd of the room from all walls and sit well away from any wall. Generally, more directional speakers are able to isolate the sound of the recording from reflections from the room, and thus convey the imaging which is actually in the recording verses what is added from the room. Room sound can produce 'envelopment', but this is not the sound of the recording - its the sound of the room. In a strict sense, I'd call room sound 'distortion'.

 

[Inner Space]

Years ago I experimented with having speakers perpendicular to my chair ...

Do you mean a straight line, down the long axis of your room, like Speaker > Chair < Speaker, such that you would have to turn your head a full 90 degrees to look at each speaker full-on?

Currently I'm using a less radical version - speakers 14' apart, toed way in, making a squashed isosceles triangle with an altitude of about 4' or 5'. Not quite a straight line, but much closer to that idea than a regular equilateral.

I find that if your speakers can generate good phantom image specificity, this arrangement works really well, by making the overall image space much wider and much less cluttered. It helps the illusion of a 3D holographic stage by separating out each specific image, in physical space, so that each can be better localized. "Distant" sounds are less likely to be masked by adjacent "closer" sounds. I'm really enjoying it. I think of it as a Cinemascope version - big, wide and handsome.

 

[Deleted member 28849]

Do you mean a straight line, down the long axis of your room, like Speaker > Chair < Speaker, such that you would have to turn your head a full 90 degrees to look at each speaker full-on?

Currently I'm using a less radical version - speakers 14' apart, toed way in, making a squashed isosceles triangle with an altitude of about 4' or 5'. Not quite a straight line, but much closer to that idea than a regular equilateral.

I find that if your speakers can generate good phantom image specificity, this arrangement works really well, by making the overall image space much wider and much less cluttered. It helps the illusion of a 3D holographic stage by separating out each specific image, in physical space, so that each can be better localized. "Distant" sounds are less likely to be masked by adjacent "closer" sounds. I'm really enjoying it. I think of it as a Cinemascope version - big, wide and handsome.

Here's a drawing I made to illustrate what I mean.