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How harmful is anti-skating blank disk?

stormobile

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Dec 16, 2024
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While I am waiting for Amazon cheap macro camera to check it myself I am curious what are the chances I’ve already harmed my new stylus severely by trying to configure anti skating with those plastic blanks. I of course haven’t run it for minutes. Spot checks over 10 attempts but I stopped after seeing some plastic residue on the needle. Is my new Nagaoka destroyed?
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No. I think diamond may be just a bit harder than plastic.
 
Not what you asked exactly, but I think you'll enjoy the digital microscope, assuming it has enough magnification. I've enjoyed having mine. It's nice to be able to actually see if you stylus is gunky or not!
 
I no longer do spinny stuff, but back in history most of my stylii either got damaged by repeated impact or just wore out!
 
The needle doesn't care about being in a groove of soft plastic or on a surface of the same soft plastic. All it cares about is forces too high, and materials about as or harder than itself.

No need to worry here, just be gentle as always. Needles are way more robust than you'd think, as every oldschool DJ can tell you.
 
Using a blank disc is a bad way to set antiskating. You need a disk with several sinus tones with increasing level, to find a good match of tracking force and antiskating.
  1. Play the tones in increasing level and listen with a headphone.
  2. Usually one channel starts to distort first - then adjust antiskating until both channels distort the same. Note the value pair (tracking force / antiskating).
  3. Increase tracking force. You will notice that distortion starts at a higher sound level.
  4. Repeat steps 1 to 3 until begin of distortion stays at the current sound level.
  5. Chose one of the noted value pairs such that the loudest level seen on commercial disks does not distort, or stick to the tracking force recommended by the pickups manual.
I have an old DHFI disk which has tracks from 50 to 100 micrometer groove extension, in steps of 10. 60 or 70 should be fine, although some MM pickups (Shure V15) can track 90 to 100 even at low tracking forces. My first MC pickup (Linn Klyde) barely managed 50, and that was not enough for a few louder records. The Van den Hul MC One Special managed 70, as does the AT33ptg/II.
 
Anything below 70um is sub par. My AudioTechnica -95E does 90 at 2grams.
The blank disk method is the wrong method. Hopeless inaccurate.Doing it on a plastic disk is even worse
 
While I am waiting for Amazon cheap macro camera to check it myself I am curious what are the chances I’ve already harmed my new stylus severely by trying to configure anti skating with those plastic blanks. I of course haven’t run it for minutes. Spot checks over 10 attempts but I stopped after seeing some plastic residue on the needle. Is my new Nagaoka destroyed?
I guess you'll stop using that disc after reading the replies. Is that even for adjustment or just deco?

As for the stylus, the plastic mustn't stick to it. Maybe you are lucky and it comes all off with a brush.

Never had problems with stylus cleaning liquids. If necessary maybe try that.
 
Although I agree that using a blank disc is technically wrong, I have found to my experience that it's actually quite useful. Firstly, ALL bias settings are a compromise, as it depends on the modulation level, the frequency of that modulation, and the radius from the centre of the record (and the stylus profile). Generally, using a blank disc results in underbiasing compared with the correct method LTig outlines above. However, I suggest that underbiasing is actually a Good Thing, as it protects from groove jumping when playing less than pristine records.

With a scratch or a piece of dirt, the stylus will be lifted relative to the bottom of the groove, and with even correct bias, the cartridge may skip to the previous groove, to be repeated again next revolution. With underbiasing, such lifting will still encourage the arm to swing inwards and there's a much better chance of just getting a click, and the record continues to play. I have therefore deliberately underbiased my turntables, as most of my LPs are purchased used, and although clean, are not always damage-free.

I use a blank lacquer as my blank disc, and don't have a problem with mistracking, but I accept I could probably get a couple of dBs better tracking with the correct setting at the price of skipping on my poorer LPs.

S.
 
Blank disk method is hopelessly inaccurate
1. what is slowly moving inward?
2. Using the Blank disk method I find it necessary to adjust 0.5 points in each direction to make the movement react , inaccurate again.
3. Tonearm makers set the antiskate to 10-15% of the VTF, which is the correct range.
4. Setting anti skate to do 90-100um will be overcompensating .

I started this thread to bring some clarity/information

 
It is vary very hard to get photo of the erosion/wear. This photo is nice but wear cannot be evaluated from it.
Take a look at Ray Parkhearst photos at Vinylengine or Steve hofman forum
 
That is not dirt in the photo , but glue to fasten the diamond
 
Is it? I could not find a closeup picture of that exact tip, just some other Nagaokas. They all look "clean".

But if you know for a fact, then that's it.
 
Is it? (...)

If you refer to the foam-like looking substance around the tip, yes, that's the usual blob of glue, which is typical in case of tips, that are glued onto a boron rod with bevelled front end. You'll also see that, if you for example look at an ATN150MLX or at Jico's SAS/B needles - simply because boron rods typically aren't pierced/drilled for inserting the tip, so glueing on the other side (at the rear end of the shank) isn't possible.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini
 
This is glue. This is the best I think one can do with 30$ amazon “microscope” as this is the absolute maximum of its focusing distance ability
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Blank disk method is hopelessly inaccurate
1. what is slowly moving inward?
2. Using the Blank disk method I find it necessary to adjust 0.5 points in each direction to make the movement react , inaccurate again.
3. Tonearm makers set the antiskate to 10-15% of the VTF, which is the correct range.
4. Setting anti skate to do 90-100um will be overcompensating .

I started this thread to bring some clarity/information

Observing the 315Hz tone at +12dB on the Ultimate test record is a reasonable approach at a not-too-high velocity—closer to the sensible levels typically found music in yours records. ;-)

P.S. There’s also that fun little trick—typical of the days when measurements weren't so easily accessible, back in the 70s—where you flip the phase on one channel and watch for the "cancellation" while adjusting.
You try it..?


;-)

(...often simply adjusted, yet ultimately made a lot of technical sense—especially when closely observing the audible distortion between the left and right channels on highly demanding piano recordings MONO (and the like) ... "the exacting ultimate goal")
(Don't forget that the latest HFN record caused some confusion—mixing up torture tracks with standard anti-skating adjustment tracks, translation issues, and so on. More precisely, even if you set the anti-skating to pass those tests—just to observe theoretical trackability—the smart move is to subsequently adjust it using much more reasonable velocity tracks... Even the 3 *+ 15 dB figure from the olds HFNs was questionable... considering it a high value.)

The anti-skating setting used for torture tests and trackability checks shouldn't be used for normal listening, where velocities are inevitably lower... That’s the point I’m making...
The late 70s and early 80s—when sports involving torture-like testing and the like came into the picture—caused quite a bit of "damage" due to this oversight.
But of course, I’m not addressing this to you specifically—it’s just my general spiel...


;-)
 
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