How good do suround speakers need to be?

[klettermann]

Not sure if this is the right forum but why not. So, per the title. Most of the audio is coming from the front I assume. So how good do side and rear speakers really need to be? Put differently, let's say front speakers are truly high end. How much is lost if the others are undistinguished?

Context: The system I'm putting together is mainly for 2 ch audio (music), and it's "high end of by pretty any measure. But the front will be shared with a HT 7.4 video system. The back and surrounds can't live up to the front spkrs. Will it really matter? I think of video as being a sonically poor stepchild to a real 2ch system. But many would probably say I'm stuck in the past. Thoughts?

 

[staticV3]

Not sure if this is the right forum but why not. So, per the title. Most of the audio is coming from the front I assume. So how good do side and rear speakers really need to be?

They need to be able to play loud enough with no audible distortion.

Steady-state response on the other hand is not very important:
https://youtu.be/7kDr0vEdfhY?t=644

 

[Chrispy]

If for actual surround music think it matters a bit more, prefer same speaker all around or at least very similar in that use. If using a 7.4 setup (4 subs?) I'd prefer fairly capable/same speakers all around ideally.

 

[jhaider]

Speaking strictly from the perspective of multichannel music (for HT your eyes let you forget any number of sonic sins)…I’ve not found surrounds that important. Fronts absolutely should be three copies of the same speaker at the same height/orientation. But for surrounds IMO as long as they don’t have any really nasty resonances they’ll be more or less fine. I’ve also come to like CBT arrays (JBL has a couple that are inexpensive, loaded with 2” wideband drivers) for their wide horizontal dispersion where it matters and unobtrusive footprint. They also don’t hot spot when you’re close to them.

 

[GXAlan]

+1 with @jhaider. In my previous setup, I used Bose 901’s as rears and jt was great too.

The same can be said with Atmos speakers. Invest in the LCR and sub. The rears are important from an experience standpoint (some 2 ch audiophile retailers try to convince you that you don’t need surround sound).

The rears just need to hit your target SPL. With most room correction tools, the lowest common denominator is how it sets levels.

 

[klettermann]

OK, thanks all. At this point I guess I should be more specific. This is all in a new media room nearing completion (L22' x W12' x H7.5'). I could use advice on which speakers to use where. My 2ch/front and sub setup is settled for foreseeable future. For the time being let's ignore that if possible. For the rest I've got a grab bag of gear ranging from "meh" to overkill. I originally planned on experimenting with all the speakers at ground level and calling it a day. But now I've also added an Atmos ceiling channel to the mix. So, the goal is a 7.1.2 set up (front + rear + sides + 1 ceiling pair + sub, right?). Also, the ceiling speakers are a bit troublesome cause ceiling is low and there's a soffit to work around. Here's what I got to play with:

• Magnepan MMG's (preferred rear?)
• KEF LS50's (alternative rears or sides. Probably overkill so I'd prefer to keep in another system)
• MG Quart One's (sides)
• Boston Acoustics bookshelf speakers (figure out how to mount overhead, but a bit big and clunky for that)
• Small Onkyo bookshelf speakers from an integrated stereo unit (unobtrusive but mid-fi at best)

For the ceiling it would probably be easiest to just use something like the below, which I don't have. And compared to the rest this probably represents a step down.

Any recommendations or comments would be terrific. Thanks in advance and cheers,

 

[diablo]

What is worthwhile depends on what you will be sending to the speakers.
I've found that the quality of audio sent to surrounds and Atmos speakers is vastly better from Blu-ray disk than from streaming movies.

 

[HTHOOK]

“ I think of video as being a sonically poor stepchild to a real 2ch system.”

Today there are so many great lossless Movie soundtracks that go along with the film that they put many of my music CDs to Shame.

These days I no longer say that I watch movies, but rather that I listen to them.

Everybody has to do what they need to do.

I can only tell you that the tweeters in my surround speakers are identical to the mains.

 

[Soundmixer]

With Atmos out there, ALL speakers should have the same timbre and output capabilities within their operating range. Nothing is worse than hearing a pan going from front to side and changing timbre. The surrounds do not have to be the same size though.

 

[klettermann]

Hmmmmm. Given all this stuff it's clearer than ever that I'm looking at a great deal of experimentation. For starters, I neglected to mention that the front speakers are factory rebuilt Magnepan MGIIIa's driven by a giant Mark Levinson amp. The primary focus of that is 2ch audio. That won't change and duplicating it for surround HT purposes is unrealistic in the extreme. In fact, all the HT/Atmos/surround stuff is kind of incidental to the 2ch setup. But, since I've already got MMG's it kind of makes sense to use those for the rears given size and placement needs. They're also much closer in character to the MGIIIa's than the rest. So that kind of leaves me with fiddling with the others for sides and ceiling. Now I'm thinking that it might be best to sort out the ear-level stuff first and then tackle the ceiling. Maybe that would mean skipping 7.1.2 altogether and just settling for 7.1.

So, moving from generalities and principles (easy), can anybody propose what you would do with the grab-bag of stuff I've got (difficult!)? Cheers,

 

[DVDdoug]

So, moving from generalities and principles (easy), can anybody propose what you would do with the grab-bag of stuff

Of course everything SHOULD be matched...

I've got a "grab bag" 5.1 setup with different "stereo", center, and rear speakers. My main stereo speakers are a large DIY project from a long time ago (before surround). I more-recently added a pair of 15-inch DIY subwoofers to that 'speaker stack". My center and rear speakers were "donated" from different people. I'm not dissatisfied and I have no plans of changing anything. My rear speakers are large "floorstanders" with 15-inch woofers hanging out-of-the way from the wall above my couch.

 

[Lsc]

If the goal is the piece together a surround sound system with a “grab bag”, you probably don’t need any advice. Making the best out of a non-ideal solution still results in a non-ideal solution.

My basement system where my boys mainly play video games has all Revel Concerta(1) speakers. I bought em all used for < $1000. 5.1 with a JL F113 sub. The surround sound even though I only have Dolby Digital thru another used Theta Casanova is excellent. Basically following simple foundations for a surround sound setup for low cost.

I agree that having a surround sound system with a mix of grab bag stuff will sound better than thru tv speakers but I’d rather watch movies in stereo vs the hodge podge as it’ll sound way better. Just my $0.02.

 

[klettermann]

Well at least I'm not the only one with a grab bag.

If the goal is the piece together a surround sound system with a “grab bag”, you probably don’t need any advice. Making the best out of a non-ideal solution still results in a non-ideal solution.

But that doesn't mean I don't need advice. One can waste a lot of time experimenting if you're too inexperienced, unknowledgeable, stubborn or stupid to figure out the right experiments in the first place. And I'm fully expecting a non-ideal solution. All I want is the least non-ideal result with the least amount of money and work dragging stuff all over the place. Anyway, I keep adding more info by bits cause I wanted to keep the OP brief and focus on big picture. But that never works. So, by way of context, I'm just finishing a new media room. It is prewired to accommodate a 7.4.2 system, though ceiling speakers would need drilling/mounting (nothing in ceiling).

Anyway, somebody somebody commented on speakers having some degree of matching or spectral commonality or whatever. Sure, makes sense. Following on that theme a little, I've already got the stuff for a full Magnepan 5.1 system (MGIIIa's, MMG,s, CC2 center + a sub). This isn't exactly a mainstream HT setup but there are those that go bananas over the whole dipole thing (including me, obviously). It would be easy enough to set this up and call it a day. Practically speaking this puts the MMG's at the rear because of size and positioning. Sound good? If yes, then it's easy enough to add sides to move up to 7.1.0. That means auditioning 3 sets of bookshelf speakers and settling on one of them. Is it better than the 5.1 setup? No? Stick with 5.1. Better? Great! Now move on to try 7.1.2. The grab bag of bookshelf speakers now has 2 more to choose from. Now it gets harder because mounting entails real work. This comes around full circle to the "how good do they need to be?" question. The bracket things pictures above would be easiest by far but I have sonic concerns.

Fortunately the room isn't done ylet, still needs paint, carpet etc. So i've got some time to spin around on all this. Cheers,

 

[Oddball]

My advice is to get as much of surround and Atmos speakers as you can afford. If you go cheap on surrounds and Atmos, it will create a really awkward soundstage that you will notice, especially if you have heard better and more balanced setups.

Surrounds and Atmos speakers do play a big role with good HT Atmos mixes and having some kind of balance between the speaker capabilities really helps the whole soundstage coherency. Although my LCR are arguably better than the other 6 bed channels, the difference is not that significant. And even smaller Atmos speakers I have - they are really pulling their weight which is pretty audible. Especially at master volume of -20dB they blend perfectly. Going up does show that LCR can do more, but still blends well together as they are all high quality speakers in their class.

 

[klettermann]

My advice is to get as much of surround and Atmos speakers as you can afford. If you go cheap on surrounds and Atmos, it will create a really awkward soundstage that you will notice, especially if you have heard better and more balanced setups.

Surrounds and Atmos speakers do play a big role with good HT Atmos mixesand having some kind of balance between the speaker capabilities really helps the whole soundstage coherency.
Although my LCR are arguably better than the other 6 bed channels, the difference is not that significant........ <<<snip>>>

OK, thanks, this probably saves me some time and effort. As I've been saying, I want to minimize $$$$ for new equipment, so this makes the starting point is pretty clear: Go with the existing Magnepan stuff for front, center and rear per my remarks above. Dipoles may be bit unorthodox but people do it claim to love it despite small sweet spot or whatever. And I don't have WAF to contend with. Then use the KEF LS50's for sides. They're great little speakers but how will they integrate? Who knows? But I'd guess that they're more capable than most of the side speakers out there. That leaves the ceiling. Maybe the best course is to dial in the bed layer first and then return to ceiling and bite the bullet on something new if need be.

Final issue: The room is wired for 7.X.2, not 7.X.4 (I'm calling subs X cause wires go on floor, not through walls, so I can have whatever I eventually want). This was done because the room is only L22' x W12.5' x H7.5' and there's an annoying and partially obstructing soffit right where front ceiling speakers ought to go. The placement of ceiling speakers is therefore somewhere between overhead or maybe sightly back from listening position. And for that matter, listening position isn't yet fixed, that will depend on the eventual placement of MGIIIa's for 2ch. Perhaps that's a problem for another thread. So many possibilities........ Thanks and cheers,

 

[Chromatischism]

So how good do side and rear speakers really need to be? Put differently, let's say front speakers are truly high end. How much is lost if the others are undistinguished?

I've had many surrounds and my answer is—at least good enough to handle an 80 Hz crossover to subs. You'll notice "small speaker sound" if they can't play down that low.

The other problem you run into is redirected bass from small speakers. The more 80-150 Hz content you send to your subs, the worse quality bass you'll have. You really do want to cross somewhere between 60-100 Hz as that is the sweet spot.

I am currently using Revel S16 on-wall with 6" drivers and I find them to be the minimum for quality home theater. Their neutrality allows them to play well with speakers of other brands as long as said other brands aren't too forward. The other speakers in my system are from Buchardt Audio and Focal.

 

[danzilla31]

I used to be in the camp that surrounds really don't need to be all that as compared to your L C R and that might have been true before object based audio such as Dolby Atmos but once I upgraded to more capable surrounds their was a lot I was missing.

Not so much in the content being played. But in the content being played at a SPL level that can keep up with my L C R's and my subs, that's where I felt I noticed the difference.

A good example is blade runner2049

That part where he's walking across the wasteland and comes across the bees. Their are three bass drops in that scene. Man if your surrounds can't keep up wherever they are crossed over your going to notice

That bass drop is going to more then just your front 3 and when your surrounds can keep up it makes a big difference

 

[Oddball]

I have probably gone overboard, but since have acquired 6 towers (Gallo Reference, with 10" sealed woofer) 15+ years ago when the money was worth much more, those are now my bed surrounds in 9.5.4 system. Bought bigger towers for LR and big centre to match to expand 5.1 system. The benefit is that towers play louder and cleaner than if they were bookshelves and one could set the crossover lower. Also panning works better, and positioning is no brainer - tower stands where you put it.

With towers one could use even more advanced bass management like LFE+Main and LFE distribution, that are however more difficult to integrate, but could smoothen/strenghten the bass response even further and provide more spatial clues for the bass content. For example, when the planes are being shelled by German ground artillery in Masters of Air, I do hear/feel where are the explosions happening in the Atmos bubble, pretty distinctly for each one. Cost vs benefit analysis though is questionable for such setup though.

For Atmos speakers it might also be worth getting something "bigger" and more capable (same point and effect for Masters of Air example above) if budget accommodates. I went for Goldenear AON 3 bookshelves and Audy is setting the crossover to 60hz where they start to fall off. I am using 80hz as there are still small speakers with 7" bass driver and 2 passive 8" side radiators, but then bump the EQ a bit in 50-80hz area so they drop a bit slower when integrating with the subs. Got them for $400 each.

 

[Tom C]

It seems to me that you want to match output levels for all the channels, so if LCR is louder than the surrounds and heights, you’ll have to trim them to balance the system out. Then, what’s the point of bigger, more capable LCR? Doesn’t it end up being a waste?

 

[Oddball]

It seems to me that you want to match output levels for all the channels, so if LCR is louder than the surrounds and heights, you’ll have to trim them to balance the system out. Then, what’s the point of bigger, more capable LCR? Doesn’t it end up being a waste?

You calibrate and level match with signal @75dB which hopefully all of decent speakers should do. Then they system translates that to 85dB reference. And then there could be up to +20dB peaks in the content. In few setups you will have the ability to reproduce 105dB peak at MLP by surround and atmos speakers at acceptable distortion levels. But these peaks are generally supposed to last for a very short period of time. But closer you get to the 105dB mark, the better it is. Perception is (in absence of reliable data) that LCR will have most of these peaks, thus more capable speakers will help there. In addition, they do carry most of the content, so by that measure, potentially worth investing more in these busiest speakers.