jeffbook
Active Member
Whatever do you mean? it will be just like car repairs, Remove the faulty module and put in a new one.He He... When the class D repairs start to hits peoples' pockets they'll beg for class A/B.
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How good are "Pure Direct" signal paths? Discussion on implementations, benefits, issues and thoughts.
- Thread starter restorer-john
- Start date
Archsam
Senior Member
On the other hand, the idea of bypassing chunks of (more or less) unnecessary (or, at least, ephemeral) circuitry in the pursuit of a "cleaner signal path" is far from new. Indeed, Yamaha in particular has long had a thing for adding a bunch of bells and whistles to their components, plus a switch to turn 'em off!
View attachment 67619
View attachment 67620
http://sportsbil.com/yamaha/ca-610ii-om.pdf
... and sometimes even switches whose operation was a little less 'ephemeral'
View attachment 67622
PS I was and still am a fan of the amplifier(s) above, having owned that CA-610II since ca. 1978. The CA-800 was a rather more recent acquisition.
PPS Agree 100% re: Luxman.
My current model Yamaha A-S3000 has defeatable relays to cut off the tone control from the signal path. It is a joy to hear the 'click' when you turn the dials to their centre and 'off' position.
And the A-S3000's dials and switches are the same design as Yamaha's amps from the 70's! How cool is that!
digicidal
Major Contributor
Plus it looks sexy as hell... which never hurts the sound any (well, in sighted testing at least).
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restorer-john
Grand Contributor
- Thread Starter
- #24
It's funny, Yamaha flipped the design of the knobs and switches to give them a modern twist. In the classic CA/CR series, the paddle knobs were for selectors and switches and the round ones for bass/treble, loudness etc.
The AS-3000 is a lovely looking amplifier.
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restorer-john
Grand Contributor
- Thread Starter
- #25
Just out interest, what is the blob in the middle, is it a rubber/plastic cap over a screw? Strange placement.
Is it perhaps a trim cap for this screw thread?
Archsam
Senior Member
No doubt the choice of round vs peddle knobs were an aesthetic decision. All they do is turn, so you can pretty much use both based purely on the composition of the fascia.
And yes, I will never get tired of its looks as well as its sound
According to the manual, it's the remote control sensor.
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restorer-john
Grand Contributor
- Thread Starter
- #27
Ah, that makes sense. Silly of me.
Archsam
Senior Member
Strangely, owing this beautiful amp and being completely happy with its sound, looks and build quality, I am a little sad that there is very little reason to change it, perhaps for a very long time.
The reason is because, having hung around ASR for awhile, I am starting to be sold on the idea of active monitors. The Yamaha is everything I ever wanted / needed, but it is a beast of a component, requiring an extra deep shelve (standard depth AV / hifi rack won't fit, I have to use an 600mm Ikea storage unit), and there is substantial amount of heat coming out of the top vents so you must have plenty of breathing space around it. So it is becoming quite tempting to imagine not having the Yamaha, and having only a pair of active monitors + Matrix Element X as a complete system.
Which kind of brings us back on track on the subject of pure signal paths - from my understanding, the big advantage of active speakers (especially professional monitors) is their ability to incorporate potentiometers / DSP into the amp / crossover assembly to enable room mode adjustments. There is little discussions on how good or bad these circuits are relative to SQ - it seems like the common consensus is that the ability to overcome room modes trumps the added complexity / potential noise into the signal path.
Any thoughts on that?
The reason is because, having hung around ASR for awhile, I am starting to be sold on the idea of active monitors. The Yamaha is everything I ever wanted / needed, but it is a beast of a component, requiring an extra deep shelve (standard depth AV / hifi rack won't fit, I have to use an 600mm Ikea storage unit), and there is substantial amount of heat coming out of the top vents so you must have plenty of breathing space around it. So it is becoming quite tempting to imagine not having the Yamaha, and having only a pair of active monitors + Matrix Element X as a complete system.
Which kind of brings us back on track on the subject of pure signal paths - from my understanding, the big advantage of active speakers (especially professional monitors) is their ability to incorporate potentiometers / DSP into the amp / crossover assembly to enable room mode adjustments. There is little discussions on how good or bad these circuits are relative to SQ - it seems like the common consensus is that the ability to overcome room modes trumps the added complexity / potential noise into the signal path.
Any thoughts on that?
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restorer-john
Grand Contributor
- Thread Starter
- #29
By all means poke around with some powered speakers for fun but keep the Yamaha. Powered speakers are a dime a dozen, are rarely anything more than compromised to fit a price point, unless you spend circa $10k or more. You have way more choices with speakers when you have an excellent amplifier to drive them.
Sure, its performance is not as good as it should be for the money, but it is in the upper echelon for fit, finish and user "feel" along with plenty of power and convenience.
The AS-3000 is destined to become a new millennium classic and will always be desirable to people who want a TOTL integrated, long after they have disappeared again from Yamaha's line-up. Unless someone offers you close to what you paid, I'd sit on it and not make any rash decisions wanting change for change's sake.
Archsam
Senior Member
Cannot agreed more. I am not parting ways with the Yamaha even if I decided to experiment with different system configurations.
Especially since I got this unit as an ex-demo for 60% of suggest retail price. The hifi shop that sold it said it was on display for 6 months, and was hardly used. There is not a single scratch on the unit. I would have never bought it if I have to pay full retail TBH.
On active monitors, there seems to be a division between the 'affordable' end (mainly pro monitors in the region of £2000 and 'entry' level models from Dynaudio, KEF, Elac, etc), and the all singing, all dancing luxury units e.g. Dutch & Dutch. selling for 5 figures. Not nearly as many choices in between. I also get the sense that the design focus on these type of speakers at the moment are more towards functionality and optimisation e.g. Genelec is pushing hard on their SAM system, D&D is doing something similar with a complex DSP system.
I simply have no hands on experience with this type of speakers, which is why I am curious.
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restorer-john
Grand Contributor
- Thread Starter
- #31
I understand. There's a certain attraction to trying a different path isn't there? But, one thing is for certain, you will fall into a software/firmware/update/compatibility hole, and let's face it, most of these speaker companies are either too young or not exactly known for their long term support are they?
I wouldn't touch a D&D, Kii or any other "smart", DSP, LAN connected, software and update dependent, active speaker with a barge pole. The level of performance and choices you have with separates is limitless and the residual value should you choose to sell and upgrade is better long term.
Many so-called "game changers" and "paradigm shifts" have come and gone in my time. It's funny to watch. DSP has been stillborn several times since the mid 1980s in both processors and active speakers. It is not, and never will be a universal panacea.
But, to be honest, if I had $10-20K burning a hole in my wallet, maybe I'd have a play with some, maybe not.
Colonel7
Addicted to Fun and Learning
@restorer-john . In the 803 thread you mentioned Yamaha using a $1.39 part that everything goes through. I should have asked then, but is this something that they should have spent more on, made more easily replaceable with a tried and true (and available) part, or just an example of a poorly designed or "not really" poor direct mode? Interested to hear your experience of how Yamaha and others did this in the past before it became AVR parts by the bucket. Following with interest how even their schematics have gone from excellent to a poor afterthought.
digicidal
Major Contributor
I think the actives vs. passives decision has much more to do with space/convenience - as opposed to a pursuit for better sound... at least in my case it always is. To me there will always be a place for (far too many actually) passive speakers and separates... just not in my office(s), guest rooms, etc.
Being able to throw a $500 DAC/Pre like my DX7 Pro on my desk, connect two XLR outputs to a pair of $100-300 monitors, and get ~85% of the enjoyment I get from my rack of gear and heavy passive towers and subs... that's worth far more than the cost. Add in a very competent headphone amp for free, and it's even more amazing and flexible.
On the other hand, if it's a big room and the listening is purely for enjoyment, then I'll put my money in separates... especially because I can't just fix things like @restorer-john - so I'd prefer my failures be separate as well.
I love my active monitors (all 7 of them at present count) but they're budget models from JBL and Adam. They are all disposable items - there simply isn't any intention for any user-serviceability at all - even if I were an EE and had full schematics. On the one hand, I hate to play into the "landfill culture" that we've become... on the other, they sound pretty amazing and no wire-spaghetti or component rack required.
Being able to throw a $500 DAC/Pre like my DX7 Pro on my desk, connect two XLR outputs to a pair of $100-300 monitors, and get ~85% of the enjoyment I get from my rack of gear and heavy passive towers and subs... that's worth far more than the cost. Add in a very competent headphone amp for free, and it's even more amazing and flexible.
On the other hand, if it's a big room and the listening is purely for enjoyment, then I'll put my money in separates... especially because I can't just fix things like @restorer-john - so I'd prefer my failures be separate as well.
I love my active monitors (all 7 of them at present count) but they're budget models from JBL and Adam. They are all disposable items - there simply isn't any intention for any user-serviceability at all - even if I were an EE and had full schematics. On the one hand, I hate to play into the "landfill culture" that we've become... on the other, they sound pretty amazing and no wire-spaghetti or component rack required.
My old preamp has a button to bypass the tone controls. At one point I rewired the thing to use the tone control stage as a second output buffer for bi-amping. Honestly not sure what state it is in now; it's someplace in the the black hole in the basement.
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restorer-john
Grand Contributor
- Thread Starter
- #35
What a classic Don! I've never heard or worked on that Audio Research unit.
It's likely worth a small fortune now to collectors. Does it have the wooden sleeve?
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restorer-john
Grand Contributor
- Thread Starter
- #36
This is a good point. Failures don't take out your entire system with separates. And "normal" people don't have an equipped repair lab at their disposal when things go wrong. (Although some of my 'friends' think they have their own personal technician on hand 24/7...)
SP3a1 preamp. Sounded great, measured very well, had to wait a while for the initial DC levels to stabilize. No wooden sleeve on this one. I had a D79 power amp as well but sold it for a song (stoopid, oh well). I have modified the heck out of the preamp so need to undo it all before I could sell (or restore) it. ARC had a deal (sort of -- $2100 USD or something like that) a few years ago to upgrade and update it with all new boards and everything. I was going to do that, but they required the incoming unit to be stock (why, when they were yanking all the boards? I dunno') and mine isn't (stock, tha is -- it may or may not work, have not turned it on in many years).
I bet it wishes it signed a prenup , poor thing will never be the same .
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restorer-john
Grand Contributor
- Thread Starter
- #40
With your old preamp, you can reverse all the cosmetic procedures you put her through, and she'll be as pretty as she was the day you first met all those years ago.
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