How good are Linn products?

[sergeauckland]

That's worse than I would have guessed, and I didn't have high expectations.

Linn's turntables were as good as anyone else's (but no better!) and their amplifiers were ditto. However, their loudspeakers were universally terrible. They didn't lack engineering capability, so one has to assume it was deliberate. Presumably in an attempt to persuade people that Linn were right, and everyone else was wrong. They did that with their turntable which went round at the right speed, just like all the others, but somehow they managed t persuade people that theirs sounded better...

S.

 

[Soniclife]

However, their loudspeakers were universally terrible. They didn't lack engineering capability, so one has to assume it was deliberate. Presumably in an attempt to persuade people that Linn were right, and everyone else was wrong. They did that with their turntable which went round at the right speed, just like all the others, but somehow they managed t persuade people that theirs sounded better...

Are there any decent measurements of their old speakers, the older the better, I enjoyed the ones I've heard. My suspicion is they have gotten worse over time.

 

[sergeauckland]

Are there any decent measurements of their old speakers, the older the better, I enjoyed the ones I've heard. My suspicion is they have gotten worse over time.

The only two I still have measurements for are the Index and the Kan. Both pretty bad. Huge midrange hump to bring vocals forward. Kan has no bass.

S.

 

[DSJR]

Linn's turntables were as good as anyone else's (but no better!) and their amplifiers were ditto. However, their loudspeakers were universally terrible. They didn't lack engineering capability, so one has to assume it was deliberate. Presumably in an attempt to persuade people that Linn were right, and everyone else was wrong. They did that with their turntable which went round at the right speed, just like all the others, but somehow they managed t persuade people that theirs sounded better...

S.

Serge, the LP12 was, from 1980 or so when more massy tonearms became the norm (I'm ignoring the FR64S and other arms from Japan), a highly 'characterful-sounding' product that put some added 'swing' and 'warmth' into the reproduction qualities it had. The main tonearm exception perhaps being the quirky/fiddly Mission 774 model, which was a great match with the original more-flexible exit cables. The original Grace 707 recommendation was a bit scrappy and not really suited to the then popular Supex SD900E pickup, but the cobbling of these three items together did make for an excellent sound when the master source wasn't available to compare

I did countless dems at the time and yes, the LP12 sounded wonderful if properly set up (pre late 80s, every one was different in terms of setting up the suspension!). Maybe it was all colourations back then, but on the rock, folk and jazz music that owners played, a Technics style deck just wasn't deemed suitable (for various incorrect reasons) and a Rega 3 sounded too fast and a bit 'mechanical' in comparison. A Thorens 160 with different arms just sounded bland in comparison (mine does, even with a 'Super' 160 plinth, MDF arm board and a choice of SME 3009 fixed head, Rega RB300, Rega R200 and Linn Basik Plus to play on it (they're appreciating in value, so worth hanging onto until the very last minute).

Post 1990 LP12s had increasing changes internally, the 'sound quality' becoming far more neutral and 'correct' as much as vinyl will allow. A full-feature Radikal LP12 with Ekos SE and Kandid pickup I fettled, sounded seriously good into a Naim Statement amp and PMC Fact Fenestrias used in a barn-like room. Track was 'Tin Pan Alley' which you may remember from your dealer days... Costs of course have risen HUGELY in the last forty years (they weren't cheap before then really), but there's still a following with money to spend, while I'm now retired and watching pennies...

Turntables really are vibration measuring instruments in their own way and, once we'd begun to learn how best to site and use the 'solid plinth' decks and not just Rega models, we discovered just how good a mid 70s top-line Technics could sound if properly set up and the old Shure nail was replaced (Shure's styli were the pits back then until the better profile ones came along - we had a proper stylus microscope and what it showed us was highly educational, the *cantilever* on a Dynavector Diamond being better finished than everyone else's diamond styli, the tip itself a work of art! The better sorted decks can offer vanishingly low *perceived* surface noise and high frequencies only limited by the pressing itself...

Sorry to go off on one again above. These days, I'd probably have the LP12 ancestor Thorens TD150mk2, sort out the now worn main bearing thrust pad and put the whole shebang into a cast off LP12 plinth (it tidies the sonics up well actually) with a modern 1.75 - 2g tracking cartridge the arm could take happily...

So there

 

[Soniclife]

The only two I still have measurements for are the Index and the Kan. Both pretty bad. Huge midrange hump to bring vocals forward. Kan has no bass.

S.

I'd wiped the memory of the kan from my mind when I wrote the above, truly awful, and equally baffling that anyone would ever buy them. I'm interested in the index measurements if you can share.

 

[Linnie]

That's worse than I would have guessed, and I didn't have high expectations.

They seem to have been on par with their competitors back in the day...

Excerpt from stereoplay 2/2009. Red = on axis, blue = 30° off axis, violet = 60° off axis, green = "parallel to wall" = 90° off axis.

I wonder about the suckout of all speakers at around 300 Hz, the Stereophile measurement of the Linn doesn't show this.

 

[Soniclife]

I wonder about the suckout of all speakers at around 300 Hz, the Stereophile measurement of the Linn doesn't show this.

Stereophile measurements are meant to be anechoic, these are on wall, so room modes are present. Those measurements are so chaotic they only really tell me something about the room, not the speakers.

 

[DSJR]

The only two I still have measurements for are the Index and the Kan. Both pretty bad. Huge midrange hump to bring vocals forward. Kan has no bass.

S.

HiFi Choice did the mid-period Sara too (scans on worldradiohistory) and this was the classic 'Batman' response. Sounded great on the original LP issue of 'Slave To The Rhythm' as the breathy bass (or was it doubling or tripling? ) in places shook the room...

 

[Soniclife]

HiFi Choice did the mid-period Sara too (scans on worldradiohistory)

Any idea what issue it's in, I tried searching there the other day with no luck.

 

[Linnie]

Any idea what issue it's in, I tried searching there the other day with no luck.

Probably this:
Linn Sara, Linn Kan measurements

 

[Linnie]

Stereophile measurements are meant to be anechoic, these are on wall, so room modes are present.

Oops, you're right. I was wondering because stereoplay did / do their measuring in an anechoic room as well. But these speakers were indeed measured in front of a wall, as the article states (which I read afterwards ).

 

[Mart68]

Probably this:
Linn Sara, Linn Kan measurements

Conclusion on the 'Sara' - 'Doesn't represent good value for money.'

You don't see that level of honesty in mag reviews any more!

 

[Mart68]

I used a Linn LK1 / LK100 pre-power for about ten years with no issues. Both were already quite old when I got them. Still have the LK100 although not in daily use, and it still works fine despite being over 30 years old. Its build quality - case, power switch, sockets - is very good.

 

[Linnie]

Those measurements are so chaotic

What we hear in our rooms in real life?

 

[Sharpi31]

I have a bit of history with Linn. Too much negative energy in the interweb, so I like to share positive vibes when I can. I grew up in Scotland and started fiddling with amps & loudspeakers in my teens. I obviously knew of Linn as a very well respected Scottish hifi business. I was looking for a temp job one school summer holiday and decided to write a letter to Ivor asking for some work experience. I wrote about the different projects I’d been working on, and offered to work for free if there were no paid roles available. He wrote back and brought me in for an interview. Long story short, he paid me and put me in a position where I was clearly learning more than contributing. Years later I met him again and thanked him for what he’d done. He told me not to thank him, but to go and do the same thing for someone else. A year later I volunteered for a work mentoring programme for disadvantaged high school kids.

Apologies - slightly off topic, but I do think company culture is important. While their products were clearly targeted at the wealthy, who wanted a dealer to handle setup etc, they were very focussed on manufacturing quality and after sale support. Linn service techs were generally enthusiasts who were very proud to represent the brand and do good service.

Clearly a very different offering compared to the sinad per $ market, but a good company.

 

[goat76]

What we hear in our rooms in real life?

Rooms are different from each other. If the measurements had been anechoic, we could at least have drawn a few conclusions about the loudspeakers' actual sound characteristics across different rooms.

 

[Soniclife]

What we hear in our rooms in real life?

Sort of, but different chaos in different rooms, which we hear through to an extent, so those measurements are only interesting to the owner of that room.

 

[Soniclife]

While their products were clearly targeted at the wealthy, who wanted a dealer to handle setup etc, they were very focussed on manufacturing quality and after sale support.

Whilst never cheap their products were affordable to normal working people at least into the 90s, then at some point prices jumped up and kept jumping up.

 

[Mart68]

Whilst never cheap their products were affordable to normal working people at least into the 90s

I think the reality is that if they'd stayed in that area they'd no longer be in business or they would just be another Chinese owned and China manufactured legacy brand by now. Naim did the same thing, they did make a cheaper unit in China but don't think they do anymore.

If you're a small scale manufacturer in a Western country you have to be selling into the luxury price arena or you die.

 

[sergeauckland]

I have a bit of history with Linn. Too much negative energy in the interweb, so I like to share positive vibes when I can. I grew up in Scotland and started fiddling with amps & loudspeakers in my teens. I obviously knew of Linn as a very well respected Scottish hifi business. I was looking for a temp job one school summer holiday and decided to write a letter to Ivor asking for some work experience. I wrote about the different projects I’d been working on, and offered to work for free if there were no paid roles available. He wrote back and brought me in for an interview. Long story short, he paid me and put me in a position where I was clearly learning more than contributing. Years later I met him again and thanked him for what he’d done. He told me not to thank him, but to go and do the same thing for someone else. A year later I volunteered for a work mentoring programme for disadvantaged high school kids.

Apologies - slightly off topic, but I do think company culture is important. While their products were clearly targeted at the wealthy, who wanted a dealer to handle setup etc, they were very focussed on manufacturing quality and after sale support. Linn service techs were generally enthusiasts who were very proud to represent the brand and do good service.

Clearly a very different offering compared to the sinad per $ market, but a good company.

I accept that Linn did look after their customers whilst at the same time exploiting them mercilessly with 'upgrades'. However, the way they bullied their dealers into not stocking competitors' products (especially Pink Triangle at the time), forcing Naim amplifiers on their dealers (until of course, Linn started with their own amps) and their frankly stupid campaign against CD put my and others backs up against them. Didn't much care for their advertising either. I had a Linn Sondek, bought in 1976, as I was taken in by all the hype at the time, and whilst it was well engineered, it performed no better than any number of competitors.

Ivor also had an unfortunate reputation for the way he treated Hamish Robertson at Ariston. But then no worse I suppose than the way Harold Leak treated Jack Dinsdale over the Tobey-Dinsdale amplifier design.

S.