Pareto Pragmatic
Addicted to Fun and Learning
Play with the bass and treble (or graphic eq), stop when you like it. Adjust as desired for type of music or mood, if you want more/less of something.
-
Welcome to ASR. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!
How far should a casual music listener go in training their ears?
- Thread starter tengiz
- Start date
Speaking of discovering things and then getting annoyed by them, or wondering why, like I did when I saw this video. Once I saw it, I couldn't stop thinking about it. 
I won't say what it is:
I won't say what it is:How the hell do you manage to shave off half your mustache? I don't understand why but I became almost OCD obsessed with David Gilmour's inability to shave. I don't remember much of the interview itself.
I'm pretty sure they could, depending on what the nature and frequency of the test signal We are more sensitive in some frequency ranges than others.
- Thread Starter
- #44
Well, if we are talking about "spoiling the ear", nothing ruined the pristine naive tolerance for off-pitch singing like modern technology. First mechanical recording, then radio and so on - suddenly everyone got used to hearing music perfectly in tune.
Gone are the days the "greatest hits" came on paper. You wanted the hot new song? You went to the shop, bought the sheet music, and sang it at home with family or friends. Pitch was optional, nobody expected perfection - the charm was in making music together.
But once you heard a polished orchestra on the radio, your ear got spoiled, trained on perfect takes.
Not necessarily a bad thing - but that cat is definitely out of the bag.
It's not hopeless though - with multiple takes, autotune, and all the other marvels of modern tech, including karaoke, the ancient art of singing and playing gloriously off pitch and off beat is not lost forever!
Gone are the days the "greatest hits" came on paper. You wanted the hot new song? You went to the shop, bought the sheet music, and sang it at home with family or friends. Pitch was optional, nobody expected perfection - the charm was in making music together.
But once you heard a polished orchestra on the radio, your ear got spoiled, trained on perfect takes.
Not necessarily a bad thing - but that cat is definitely out of the bag.
It's not hopeless though - with multiple takes, autotune, and all the other marvels of modern tech, including karaoke, the ancient art of singing and playing gloriously off pitch and off beat is not lost forever!
Multicore
Major Contributor
- Joined
- Dec 6, 2021
- Messages
- 4,193
- Likes
- 5,212
Why not ?
- Thread Starter
- #46
Because I believe in human agency. I’ve seen humans overcome much more terrifying pressure to conform.
The distribution of musicians and singers of both genders is fairly even, listening to music on a smartphone is also, and home hi-fi is suddenly very socially unacceptable for women? Probably not
.respice finem
Major Contributor
- Joined
- Feb 1, 2021
- Messages
- 3,396
- Likes
- 6,460
Not unacceptable, they're just not interested, and large gear "spoils" the room aesthetics for them. Not for all, but for most.
Not clear if it's genetic, behavioral, hormonal...
Not clear if it's genetic, behavioral, hormonal...
- Thread Starter
- #49
Does he have siblings? When I was 20, my younger brother hated the thin 'stash I was growing. One day I was late for an event, let him trim it, and he "accidentally" shaved off half a side. I had to take the whole thing off — otherwise I’d look like Adolf. He was upset back then, but years later admitted he did it on purpose because he just didn’t like me wearing it.
If you take a listen to the Queen album "The Miracle", on your fav streaming service,, the first track called PARTY is a prime modern example of actually using "off pitch" singing. They will sing off pitch for a few bars then hit it pitch perfect for a few bars then back to the off pitch all as part of the song dynamics. Its great.
Anton S
Senior Member
Critical listening, like critical thinking, can be either a blessing or a curse, depending on the context. The key is to know when to employ or suspend it.
Professional training can make you very intolerant of impairments. If you want to have an expert opinion in subjective matters, then it is mandatory to get the training.
If not, then I suggest trusting the science and using objective measurements to decide what to buy.
As for people hearing very small issues, I would not trust them without providing proof of their training. From what I have seen online, many peak at measurements before making such precise statements, even though they claim to not do so! If their claims match the measurements, then might as well go by measurements themselves.
I can't suspend mine any more than my piano teacher can suspend his sense of rhythm! Even when I think I am playing well he asks me if I could hear my timing errors.
Anton S
Senior Member
My condolences.
- Thread Starter
- #55
Right, buying is one hurdle, and I’m confident the objective measurements are very useful - case in point, the very first decision I made based on Spinorama turned out to be absolutely superb.
Now I’m in the next phase - why does the voice in some recordings not sound good in my dedicated listening room with objectively excellent speakers, but sound fine in the car? Everywhere else the dedicated room absolutely crushes it.
So here’s my worry: I already hear things that bother me, but if I learn how to identify them more clearly by ear, will I just end up noticing even more? I don’t want this to turn into an endless chase for "better" sound.
I already went through something like this back when CRTs ruled the world. The geometric distortions - pincushion, ray alignment, that sort of thing - would drive me nuts. I cycled through so many models and individual sets of widescreen CRT TVs just to find one with the lowest visible distortions. And once I did, I’d fine tune it with the stock firmware adjustments and even actual magnets.
My family and friends made fun of me because I could never convince them that I was seeing what I was seeing. Then Plasma, and later OLED, finally solved that problem for me. Of course, now I have to wrestle with color banding and compression artifacts instead. It’s much better than it was - night and day, really - and I’m mostly ok with it now.
Chris A
Senior Member
Trying to read through your posts on this subject, I believe that I see a pattern that I would like to confirm with the OP:
Color banding in video nowadays is an artifact of the source video itself. Same thing for video compression artifacts...
I know that when I'm watching anything that's streaming online, these video artifacts are the price you pay for that convenience. If I want more performance, I have to move to higher quality video, which is found exclusively on video discs mastered using more bit depth and lossless file compression schemas. You won't find these via streaming. 4K native-source video discs are required for visually flawless video playback. Even going to scanned-film movies, visual artifacts will be found (with all due respect to Chris Nolan and Wally Pfister who refuse to let film go into the annals of history). The best native format 4K video and accompanying audio codecs/bit depths have near-perfect results on-screen. It's amazing.
So what's the problem? There are still darn few native 4K transfers that I want to see (note that I don't watch Marvel Comics--and the last time I looked, Jane Austen and Bronte classics haven't really been filmed on 4K). My investment in 4K capabilities has not yet met my subjective break-even standard (i.e., 4K player, TV, the hassle of switching audio and video streams separately instead of a single button push on a Harmony remote, etc.). I'm still waiting on Hollywood studios to actually make the shift to 4K. They really haven't yet. If they do, the now increased production prices for native 4K will basically disappear.
What's the holdup? The consumers who by-and-large aren't investing in 4K (or even Blu-Ray, for that matter). If it comes with Netflix streaming, that's okay with the average consumer, just as long as it doesn't cost anything to make the transition from what they have now or what they can buy on clearance at Amazon for the same low cost as DVD quality.
__________________________________________________________
Likewise, when I listen to CD-quality music, I'm aware that the processes used on each track significantly degrades the sound. I accept that. I make the most of the kind of music that I grew up with via demastering. I have to say that the results of this effort are a very big step up over what is generally available.
But do those old analog-recorded/transferred to CD titles sound anything like a modern multi-channel SACD recorded and processes restricted to DSD format only? Not on your life. It's the difference between the living and the dead (basically).
I'd say: pay a lot more attention to the incoming source quality--and realize that is the real limiting factor. Don't wring your hands on poor quality source material "getting better" via switching and matching hi-fi hardware. It will likely take more than your lifetime for those old legacy titles to completely fade away--and be replaced by modern quality source material.
Chris
Last edited:
whereisbrian
Senior Member
The topic of this thread is subjective.
I see some simple approaches that could be followed.
With a little practice, one can already assess the quality of a recording and its dynamic range.
I think it's important to listen to a wide variety of music, in all styles, even the most unusual ones, from bel canto to the loudest metal, from all over the world; this helps build an appreciation for music.
It's also important to attend live concerts: the sound of a trumpet or drums up close can be quite intense in terms of decibels.
I see some simple approaches that could be followed.
With a little practice, one can already assess the quality of a recording and its dynamic range.
I think it's important to listen to a wide variety of music, in all styles, even the most unusual ones, from bel canto to the loudest metal, from all over the world; this helps build an appreciation for music.
It's also important to attend live concerts: the sound of a trumpet or drums up close can be quite intense in terms of decibels.
- Thread Starter
- #58
Yes, that’s right. What I’m saying is that there isn’t much I can do here even if I wanted to. The minor improvements different TV video processors bring are real, but ultimately it all comes down to the source. That’s why, even though I rarely play physical discs these days, I still keep my video disc players up to date. At least this way, I know whether it even makes sense to keep chasing the elusive "better picture" on my end or not.
I had no idea you are studying Piano. Well done sir. Metronomes are golden when studying piano. I studied the Piano for ten years. With todays advancements you can include a computerized percussion ensemble that will keep you on your toes. Learn the music in tempo. Memorize everything.
Similar threads
