I love good music reproduction, but focus more on the general enjoyment of music. I no longer worry about improving sound quality beyond what I have. I expect I will still get new speakers from time to time "just because." But I'm not expecting some giant or even noticeable difference. I don't feel the need to invest huge sums of money for bragging rights or the last 1% of fidelity.
-
Welcome to ASR. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!
How far should a casual music listener go in training their ears?
- Thread starter tengiz
- Start date
- Thread Starter
- #22
Yes, that goes to a core facet of the question. You hear that something is off, take measurements, share them with your description of the problem, and the forum suggests a fix... but once applied it does not solve it. The real gap is in putting what you hear into words clear enough for the measurements to be analyzed and interpreted from the right perspective so the exact issue can be diagnosed.Maybe more to your question, I notice an increasingly large number of members don't seem to be able to relate measurements with in-room sound of a speaker. For sure this is an area where training (aka experience) is incredibly helpful. Amir, Erin, and a host of useful measurements of speakers are now available. We can measure our rooms and speakers now with inexpensive and easy to use microphones. Free analytical software tools abound. A community of practice finally exists. I consider understanding speaker measurements that the largest area of training one could do. What does a speaker with large port resonances actually sound like? How does room placement actually affect the sound? What actually is my preferred in-room response? What sucks more, my room or my speakers?This type of training helps immensely.
MattHooper
Grand Contributor
- Joined
- Jan 27, 2019
- Messages
- 10,908
- Likes
- 19,355
IMO... exactly. I used to have sharper critical listening skills of this kind. I didn't have formal training but I did get to the point where I could more or less pick out a dB or two the way Erin does. But I haven't used them for work in a long time. I don't really miss it.
Most of what you get out of it is hearing flaws. "200hz is too hot, makes voices too thick sounding"... things like that. The upside is you get more excited when you hear really good performance... when you listen for flaws and don't hear any. Eureka! Or you hear something really unique about the performance of gear. Your ability to hear something really special is also improved.
But at the end of the day, listening for flaws in gear is sort of a dismal way to go about enjoying music. It's satisfying when it's part of your job and you have an endless flow of gear to evaluate and form opinions about. You get to feel smart and capable by exercising your skills.
When you just have your home system day-in, day-out, it's the sonic equivalent of noticing a dead pixel in your TV and never being able to ignore it again.
Or, you go to your friend's house, they excitedly show off their system, and you have to decide whether to tell them all the problems you noticed, or just say "wow, sounds awesome!" You end up feeling dirty either way.
A double-edged sword for sure. It's also a good way to give yourself a bad case of upgradeitis.
The flip side as mentioned earlier is, it's much easier to set up and diagnose a system yourself. But if you train your ears, also train yourself in acceptance.
Very well put! I vibe with that.
DVDdoug
Master Contributor
- Joined
- May 27, 2021
- Messages
- 5,496
- Likes
- 7,872
I've avoided trying to train myself. I enjoy "good sound" but I'm not a musician or producer and I'm not in the business of designing/building or reviewing equipment. (I have run a mixer a few times.)
I grew-up with vinyl and the "snap", "crackle" and "pop" always annoyed me. The LAST thing I want is to start hearing new defects that I'm not noticing now!
I grew-up with vinyl and the "snap", "crackle" and "pop" always annoyed me. The LAST thing I want is to start hearing new defects that I'm not noticing now!
- Thread Starter
- #25
Yes, this is a very reasonable approach, and I am sure many of us try to follow the set it and forget it mantra as much as we feel comfortable.
However, I can relate to at least two reasons to deviate from it.
Your system for some reason slowly degrades in performance. It happens gradually, so you get conditioned to the lower quality, but eventually it becomes obvious that something is off and you need to take action.
Or you experience something that in some respect sounds better than your own system. The better tuned your system is, the less likely this is to happen, but it does happen occasionally. Like a very competently set up demo at a HiFi show or store, which can send you chasing the particular improvement that matters to you.
Training the ear is a high bar. One of my best friends has been toning pianos and grands for 40 years and yes he's got the ear. He can do 95% by ear and then rest by digital.
For us mortals, we need to understand what curve we like. Options are endless so figuring out what is that one really likes is priceless. Could take hundreds or hours thought or a lucky strike.
For us mortals, we need to understand what curve we like. Options are endless so figuring out what is that one really likes is priceless. Could take hundreds or hours thought or a lucky strike.
- Thread Starter
- #27
Once you educated yourself to properly describe the real issue that bothered you, chances are your newly acquired skill starts to haunt you with even more audible problems. You wish you could go back and forget it, but it is too late: you begin to hear things you never cared about before 
.
It keeps you up at night, your blood pressure rises, and your family notices that you are no longer your usual stoic self who cannot be shaken or stirred by the mundane.
You know some old pros who now stopped listening to music unless it is for work that pays well enough, while others manage to reach a plateau of Zen where knowledge and casual enjoyment live side by side.
That balance takes a lifetime to learn - and you do not have that kind of time anymore
.
And you think - what on earth have I done
???
True story.
.It keeps you up at night, your blood pressure rises, and your family notices that you are no longer your usual stoic self who cannot be shaken or stirred by the mundane.
You know some old pros who now stopped listening to music unless it is for work that pays well enough, while others manage to reach a plateau of Zen where knowledge and casual enjoyment live side by side.
That balance takes a lifetime to learn - and you do not have that kind of time anymore
.And you think - what on earth have I done
???True story.
Last edited:
Watching breakdown videos helps me listen to music more critically and makes the experience more enjoyable. I also volunteer as a sound mixer at church, where I focus on hearing distinct voices and instruments so I can blend them into a cohesive mix. This approach carries over into my audiophile hobby and makes it even more rewarding. I am often surprised by tracks that place voices or instruments in unexpected positions within a 3D soundstage, and it never gets old.
Chris A
Senior Member
For me, I believe the answer to your question is really one of practicality. Generically it goes like this: "what do you intend to do with your better-trained hearing system?" For me, this has been multifaceted over time:
- In my childhood, I had to be able to hear issues with amplitude response of DIY loudspeakers I built, as well as pick out electrical contact issues and amplifier issues because measurement microphones were way too expensive, and measurement analyzers were completely out of reach economically in terms of DIY audio.
- Later at University, music school ear training was necessary be able to pick out melodic lines/chords to be able to improvise and/or transcribe music by ear. (Nowadays, there are relatively low cost PC apps that can do the transcription task quite well, but improvisation still requires a trained hearing system).
- Much more recently (the last decade or so), as I discovered issues with mastering of some existing music tracks I had, then embarked on a long-term demastering task of most of my CD tracks. Looking only at cumulative spectral density and spectrogram plots isn't enough to figure out how to "undo" some of the obvious mastering EQ (clipping, of course, is the first thing you see on the time-amplitude trace)--I had to be able to hear the differences using only my ears. Being able to hear 1 dB differences in music track bands is required to be successful in doing successful demastering--just like the mastering guys themselves develop this ability over the years. Presently, I've got well in excess of 10K hours of using my ears for this task--since I discovered that most all music tracks (greater than 95% of the tracks I own) have mastering issues, so my ability to hear loudspeaker amplitude response issues as well as track EQ issues has improved greatly.
Understand also that in order for these demastered tracks to be truly useful, you've basically got to have near-perfect stereo/multichannel setup to avoid having to demaster all tracks due to amplitude/phase response issues of your setup.
- VST plugins that can undo mastering compression, i.e., multiband expander/compressor and dynamic EQ, which are applied after clipping is repaired, are now relatively cost effective, and can now be used in real time during playback of dynamically compressed tracks (i.e., virtually all released popular music tracks are compressed). So training the ear and the eye to detect which existing track bands need expansion is a learned skill.
As far as pursuing esoteric "golden ear audiophile" type hearing capabilities, such as phase reversal in loudspeakers (i.e., being able to hear if the leading acoustic wave from the loudspeaker array has positive or negative pressure), and other esoteric "hearing tests" found on test CDs put out by sources like Stereophile in the early 1990s, etc...I never had much use for these capabilities, so I didn't spend time trying to improve my ability to hear them. For me, that's pretty much indistinguishable from what I see in others as "overt OCD symptoms". I've not been subject to those kind of compulsions in the past.
When I was in elementary school (6th grade), I remember a test performed on those students wanting to take band (or choir) the next grade year. What the tests were looking for was tone deafness. I've found that if you have pretty strong ability to pass that test, you probably have most of the abilities you need to do ear training--at least to the levels that performing musicians need to be successful.
Of course, the more talent you have, the easier it is. I met a few students in music school having very strong absolute pitch capability (something in retrospect I'm glad that I didn't possess to a greater prevalence, due to the problems that come when trying to play with others on instruments). I can detect issues in tuning that others might call very long-term tonal memory--being able to tell if a group of musicians are uniformly playing flat or sharp--without first being cued--or on a different basic pitch standard, e.g., A415, A440, etc., without having to hear both cases of orchestras playing the same piece to different standards.
I can tell you that a strong absolute pitch capability has significant downsides when playing music with others--because the typical accompanying synesthesia can be a big challenge to get around (...and not color synesthesia or "chromesthesia" in my case, but another type...). The one with absolute pitch hears the notes that everyone is playing as "wrong notes". Stop and think about that for a moment...
For me, this question answered itself: I trained my ears to be able to do the tasks that I wanted/needed to do.
Today I listen for pleasure, too, but you may classify me as being in a different category--based on your qualifiers that I quoted just above.
Could I have kept going in ear training? Certainly. Did I need to? Not really. I got the skills I needed--to the point that I found that I was passing Alton Everest's and JBL certified listener tests without error (the first time I took the tests).
Chris
Last edited:
- Thread Starter
- #30
That is an impressively disciplined approach. You’ve managed to carve out and cultivate the abilities that genuinely mattered for your listening, without incidentally developing sensitivities to things that didn’t matter to you, or that would only have annoyed you because you couldn’t - or wouldn’t - do anything about them.
And you’re certainly not a casual listener in my view. The fact that you felt the need to demaster recordings rather than simply avoid the ones you didn’t like already puts you in a very different category.
If it can lead to better experiences of music, then why not? IF, for example, training in detecting sound level differences, noise, distortion can lead to the realization that you have a bad HiFi system and /or that EQ is needed to tame room moods and action is taken to improve it and that then leads to enjoying the music more. Or the realization that it's that audible distortion that makes you not like playing at high volume. Which you would like to do but your ears say no to doing so.Then there is a point.
If, on the other hand, you don't experience any problems, then the question is whether ignorance is bliss or not? I mean, why learn to identify and create problems* if you don't experience it as a problem to begin with?
*If the problem, for example, is the lack of a large wallet to buy a new, better Hifi system
By the way. Absolutely, that you can practice and get better. I was practicing the test below yesterday until at the 1dB level I got it right every time:
Blind Testing a 1 dB Level Difference
Discover the smallest difference in level (dB) you can reliably hear.
www.audiocheck.net
Last edited:
A similar subject was discussed previously. The answer seems to be "level 8"
- Thread Starter
- #33
Right, but it's one thing if you learn how to better nail a problem that you have - you just didn't know exactly what it was. You know, almost like Monsieur Jourdain, who hires tutors in music, dance, and philosophy - and then, when his philosophy teacher explains the difference between verse and prose, beams with delight at the sudden realization that he has been speaking prose proficiently for forty years without ever knowing it.If it can lead to better experiences of music, then why not? IF, for example, training in detecting sound level differences, noise, distortion can lead to the realization that you have a bad HiFi system and /or that EQ is needed to tame room moods and action is taken to improve it and that then leads to enjoying the music more. Or the realization that it's that audible distortion that makes you not like playing at high volume. Which you would like to do but your ears say no to doing so.Then there is a point.
If, on the other hand, you don't experience any problems, then the question is whether ignorance is bliss or not? I mean, why learn to identify and create problems* if you don't experience it as a problem to begin with?
*If the problem, for example, is the lack of a large wallet to buy a new, better Hifi system
And a whole another level is like taking your car to a mechanic because the radio sometimes crackles, and when he listens more carefully he says, "Ah yes, but also your cup holder squeaks, the glovebox light flickers, and one of your windshield wipers dances just off-beat". And the punchline, of course, is that the mechanic is you
- with your new, sharper ears nailing one annoyance only to uncover a chorus of tiny quirks you never knew were there.I tried it - the only thing I can identify without any practice is the sample with the rise. I can’t reliably distinguish between steady and falling, even after a few dozen attempts. But I can definitely believe I could sharpen that skill with practice.By the way. Absolutely, that you can practice and get better. I was practicing the test below yesterday until at the 1dB level I got it right every time:
View attachment 473900View attachment 473901
0.5 dB very doubtful whether I would be able to do it even with a lot of practice.Blind Testing a 1 dB Level Difference
Discover the smallest difference in level (dB) you can reliably hear.
I re-read my quip about the 1 dB and realized I hadn’t worded it clearly. In Erin’s video, he shows a graph comparing two generations of essentially the same speaker model - one has a slightly lower response, about 1 dB down, across an octave or so in the bass. My understanding is that he could hear it right away, just by playing music. No AB/ABX testing.
I’m relieved if I can catch a rising tone, while this guy hears 1 dB in the bass like it’s nothing. To me, that’s superhuman.
Finding the cause of something you experience as a problem is of course good. Learning to discover that there is a problem that is not experienced as one before the discovery phase is initiated, well I don't know. Maybe if it ultimately leads to more rewarding experiences after the discovery or the insight?Right, but it's one thing if you learn how to better nail a problem that you have - you just didn't know exactly what it was. You know, almost like Monsieur Jourdain, who hires tutors in music, dance, and philosophy - and then, when his philosophy teacher explains the difference between verse and prose, beams with delight at the sudden realization that he has been speaking prose proficiently for forty years without ever knowing it.
And a whole another level is like taking your car to a mechanic because the radio sometimes crackles, and when he listens more carefully he says, "Ah yes, but also your cup holder squeaks, the glovebox light flickers, and one of your windshield wipers dances just off-beat". And the punchline, of course, is that the mechanic is you
There is something psychological and philosophical about it that you can twist and turn back and forth, so to speak.
You can "cheat" by alternately clicking on "Files being tested" and on "?" multiple times back and forth before leaving an answer. Fast back and forth.It tunes in, teaches the ears to distinguish between down 1 dB and flat, which I find is the hardest to distinguish.
It actually isn't that difficult when you do it that way. But as I said, it can almost be seen as cheating then. Or maybe practice makes perfect?
It actually isn't that difficult when you do it that way. But as I said, it can almost be seen as cheating then. Or maybe practice makes perfect?
- Thread Starter
- #36
Right, the "ear" itself here in this discussion is best understood as nothing more than the ergonomic handle for the whole contraption.
Almost like Salieri in "Amadeus": (about Emperor Joseph II) "Actually, the man had no ear at all".
Philbo King
Major Contributor
- Joined
- May 30, 2022
- Messages
- 1,001
- Likes
- 1,468
I was given an old upright piano years many years ago and went down the rabbithole of restoring it and learning to tune it. When I got it, it had half the keys mistuned by a half step. It took weekly retuning for about a year before it started holding pitch. Frequently the old strings would break while tuning. Anyway, my ears became acutely sensitive to pitch in the process so that, for several years any slight mistuning would grate on my nerves. Thankfully that went away after a while.
Lately I've been working with slide guitar, concentrating on half-flat and half-sharp notes that blend gracefully with chords and notes from 'normal' scales. It has been enlightening, and something I could never have done during my intolerant perfect-ear tuning days.
Lately I've been working with slide guitar, concentrating on half-flat and half-sharp notes that blend gracefully with chords and notes from 'normal' scales. It has been enlightening, and something I could never have done during my intolerant perfect-ear tuning days.
GM3
Active Member
Yep, guitar intonation & tuning, not to mention that straight frets are inherently out of tune... Add neck bow vs string height vs fret buzz...
That's the thing, when you start to notice those things, you can't stop wanting to fix and improve them, and it never ends...
solderdude
Grand Contributor
Yep, that's true for a lot of things.
In The Netherlands we have 'mamma appelsap' songs (mondegreen in English). Once you were pointed to the words that sound Dutch in a song (that is not Dutch) you can't un-hear it anymore.
But sure, with a lot of things in audio... once you hear something it may bother you or you get an 'I never heard that before' experience.
That's training and to be honest... I wish I never 'learned' to hear certain aspects as those usually distract or 'take-away' enjoyment a little.
It did open the door to become a 'sound quality addict'.
Last edited:
PristineSound
Major Contributor
Being able to identify a 1 dB difference is very impressive. I'm pretty sure most people can't do that.
I think being able to identify 6 EQ bands on the Harman how to listen app is more than sufficient if you don't plan to become a loud speaker designer.
I think being able to identify 6 EQ bands on the Harman how to listen app is more than sufficient if you don't plan to become a loud speaker designer.
Similar threads
