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How far have ss amps really come in the last twenty years??

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digicidal

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I've used a pair of their electronic versions at a shooting range before - different application but very effective (and you don't have to remove them to speak at a normal volume in between).
 

MattHooper

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I wonder if part of the Asian attraction to horn speakers is the controlled directivity at high frequencies, given the speakers are often going in to homes with rooms much smaller than we are used to in, for instance, North America. Having seen how close to side walls many Asian audiophile speakers end up, I'd infer controlled directivity would be a good thing.
 

Sal1950

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I've used a pair of their electronic versions at a shooting range before - different application but very effective (and you don't have to remove them to speak at a normal volume in between).
What specifically are you using? I've tried several pairs of the electronic muffs but they don't provide the isolation I was looking for. I spend a lot of time shooting and am anal about protection, I've got enough loss already. I normally use foam plugs and a good pair of regular muffs over them.
 

Sal1950

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Huh.. These are so ugly that I wouldn't even bother to ask wife if she would allow them in the house. :D
If I could afford them and the house to home them, she wouldn't have input.
With that kind of money you should be upgrading your women more often that the HiFi anyway. LOL
 

Sal1950

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This discusses amp & speaker matching in some detail - click on the title at the top of the web page.
Thanks Floyd for access to that info!
 

Blumlein 88

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Blumlein 88

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Huh.. These are so ugly that I wouldn't even bother to ask wife if she would allow them in the house. :D
This is so different from everything else Magico makes I've assumed it was for Asian markets. They even show Asians in the photos. It still may be very good, but I don't know that it means they think this is the only way to make good speakers.
 

digicidal

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What specifically are you using? I've tried several pairs of the electronic muffs but they don't provide the isolation I was looking for. I spend a lot of time shooting and am anal about protection, I've got enough loss already. I normally use foam plugs and a good pair of regular muffs over them.
I used these (if I remember correctly). A friend who is a much more active shooter (that sounds wrong) owns a couple sets and let me borrow them for a few range days. They made my AR-15 sound about like a .22 with foam plugs does - or about the same as foam+muffs do with 5.56. Still has impact but I'd guess it's down to ~90dB or so. Difficult to be sure since you're psycho-acoustically 'hearing' some impact through your body at the same time. I think due to the later, my .40 Sig sounded almost silent at the indoor range with them. Rather like someone flicking an empty coke can next to my ear. Arms are so much better than shoulders at mitigating recoil - at least up to a point.

Best part is it's fast, like a really good welding mask, but for your ears - the moment the 'crack' is over, you can still hear the brass hit the ground in many cases (unless someone else shoots at that moment at least).

Wish I had more time to shoot these days... but then again, so many ranges here have closed or gone all hollywood on me (sandwiches and machine gun rentals). Sigh.

This is so different from everything else Magico makes I've assumed it was for Asian markets. They even show Asians in the photos. It still may be very good, but I don't know that it means they think this is the only way to make good speakers.
Well, I think their other models conclusively indicate they don't feel that way - unless they don't think they make good speakers overall. Although at least the naming convention indicates that they might think it's the only way to make the best speakers. I'm sure it's more a case of "this is the best way to lighten a select few wallets of over a half million dollars while making sure they feel like they got a good deal somehow." ;)
 
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All the same subjectivist BS we've heard 10,000 times on almost as many websites.
There are magical properties that we don't yet know how to measure for and that their golden ears can hear.
That is until you turn out the lights, then that claimed magic dust disappears like a line of coke at a AA meeting. LOL
Same ole, same ole, same ole. BLAH
You believe that unknown magical properties is a thing, yet you criticize others for belief in magical properties.:facepalm: So which is it? Unknown magical properties or not?

Feel free to present evidence for your magical beliefs and collect your Nobel Prize. Or do your beliefs also fall under the category of unknown “magic dust” and “subjectivist BS”?

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“As I have explained a number of times, when we make missteps, then the credibility of everything we say comes into question.” -amirm

“Our nose better be damn clean as we criticize…”. -amirm
 

DonH56

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I agree with this comment. Having spent a lifetime listening to all manner of loudspeakers and having designed a few, for the experience, not to get commercial, all I can say is that my interpretation of "dynamic" can be fulfilled by both cones and domes and by horns. Until recently timbral peculiarities of most horns put me off, but the latest examples, such as the JBL Pro M2 are absolutely competitive with the best cone/dome designs such as the Revel Salon2 in terms of sound quality - and this behavior is well described in anechoic spinorama measurements; i.e. evaluating linear distortions. When driven by power amps capable of delivering the necessary power without voltage or current clipping, or protection activation, both delivered the goods in terms of bandwidth and sound levels within prudent hearing conservation levels.

For me, much of the sensation of "dynamics" is delivered by very low frequencies. So I have a seriously capable multiple subwoofer system. Take that away, or tone it down, and things revert to much "smaller" and "ordinary" right away. Reproduction to 20 Hz or below is impressive even if it is not shaking your body, which is is also capable of doing, most often in movies. Many modern music recordings have "organ pedal" frequencies in them, and it is seductive. One wonders if they were heard in the control rooms.

Another factor is directivity and the extent to which the room is energized. Here is where horns often distinguish themselves by putting the listener in a more dominant direct sound field - it is why they are used in professional audio - to address an audience with minimal excitation of the venue. Although at domestic sound levels horns and compression drivers exhibit low distortion, in their professional roles air non-linearity in the throat can generate audible distortion at high sound levels. They found their way into consumer products because of their high efficiency at a time when amplifier power was seriously rationed. That is no longer an issue. I go to live symphonic concerts about a dozen times a year, and it is a very different experience from any stereo rendering of the same music. The real thing is huge, enveloping and crescendos are, to me, "dynamic" even when the sound levels are lower than I can generate at home. The dominant frontal sound of stereo can't do it and turning up the volume doesn't help. A tasteful multichannel upmix is a more satisfying experience, even at moderate sound levels.

Many high quality cone & dome systems have low sensitivity combined with low impedances and these require serious horsepower to generate cinema sound levels - I'm using 800 watts at 4 ohms. Typical receivers lack the power and are not even specified to drive 4 ohms without misbehavior, so mass market audio has understandably been seeking more "dynamics". Yes, when the volume is turned up distortion increases, but one needs to ask where it originates. I have had two instances of misbehaving overload protection circuits in my home systems, and these were in high priced, high power amps that were not happy driving the complex, and sometimes low, impedances that show up in consumer loudspeakers. It was complicated in my situation because I had several amplifiers and several loudspeakers circulating through my life - tracking down the culprit was tricky. This sort of thing must be common in mass market receivers when they are pushed. So, of course at least some of the time the speakers get the blame.

Non-linear distortion can occur at the low-end of the tweeter frequency range. Although much attention is paid to diaphragm materials, it is often the invisible and not discussed motor that really makes an audible difference. Another factor in alleviating this distortion that occurs in an unfortunate frequency range is to employ a shallow waveguide (a.k.a. horn) to increase the directivity and on-axis output in this frequency range. It has the equally important advantage of improving the directivity match at crossover to a midrange. Put a well designed, linear, motor on a tweeter with a waveguide and it matters less what the diaphragm material is - except to the marketing department.

I'm rambling so I will stop. Just to point out that what we perceive as dynamic performance is not simple. Not everything we may describe as "dynamic" has to do with sound level. You may want to look at Part 3 of my series "how to design a home theater" in the companion website to the 3rd edition of my book. It is open access, no need to buy the book. www.routledge.com/cw/toole. This discusses amp & speaker matching in some detail - click on the title at the top of the web page.
My only reason for quoting you is to simply say thanks and please continue to ramble on! - Don
 

Blumlein 88

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I used these (if I remember correctly). A friend who is a much more active shooter (that sounds wrong) owns a couple sets and let me borrow them for a few range days. They made my AR-15 sound about like a .22 with foam plugs does - or about the same as foam+muffs do with 5.56. Still has impact but I'd guess it's down to ~90dB or so. Difficult to be sure since you're psycho-acoustically 'hearing' some impact through your body at the same time. I think due to the later, my .40 Sig sounded almost silent at the indoor range with them. Rather like someone flicking an empty coke can next to my ear. Arms are so much better than shoulders at mitigating recoil - at least up to a point.

Best part is it's fast, like a really good welding mask, but for your ears - the moment the 'crack' is over, you can still hear the brass hit the ground in many cases (unless someone else shoots at that moment at least).

Wish I had more time to shoot these days... but then again, so many ranges here have closed or gone all hollywood on me (sandwiches and machine gun rentals). Sigh.



Well, I think their other models conclusively indicate they don't feel that way - unless they don't think they make good speakers overall. Although at least the naming convention indicates that they might think it's the only way to make the best speakers. I'm sure it's more a case of "this is the best way to lighten a select few wallets of over a half million dollars while making sure they feel like they got a good deal somehow." ;)
Didn't know about those Etymotic electronic ear plugs. I may need some too for shooting. Like Sal I usually use good foam plugs and ear muffs over those unless no one including me is shooting anything larger than a rimfire. Even that isn't enough if someone is using a rifle with a muzzle brake on it.
 

SIY

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You believe that unknown magical properties is a thing, yet you criticize others for belief in magical properties.:facepalm: So which is it? Unknown magical properties or not?

Feel free to present evidence for your magical beliefs and collect your Nobel Prize. Or do your beliefs also fall under the category of unknown “magic dust” and “subjectivist BS”?

View attachment 29252
View attachment 29253


“As I have explained a number of times, when we make missteps, then the credibility of everything we say comes into question.” -amirm

“Our nose better be damn clean as we criticize…”. -amirm
Not sure what your problem with Sal is, and you've posted something like this several times. Perhaps you might dial it back a few notches?

(Yes, I've been guilty of similar things)
 

DonH56

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Didn't know about those Etymotic electronic ear plugs. I may need some too for shooting. Like Sal I usually use good foam plugs and ear muffs over those unless no one including me is shooting anything larger than a rimfire. Even that isn't enough if someone is using a rifle with a muzzle brake on it.
There are a several really good electronic ear muffs or shooters. Check various gunsite reviews; I've lost track of the really good ones. My friend has several pair. The Etymotic ear plugs for musicians are good but I need something more robust (more attenuation) for shooting. When I do it, which is rare these days, but a 12 gauge or 44 magnum will generate some noise But, what do I care, I play trumpet! :D
 

digicidal

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There are a several really good electronic ear muffs or shooters. Check various gunsite reviews; I've lost track of the really good ones. My friend has several pair. The Etymotic ear plugs for musicians are good but I need something more robust (more attenuation) for shooting. When I do it, which is rare these days, but a 12 gauge or 44 magnum will generate some noise But, what do I care, I play trumpet! :D
Yeah both of those examples are a decent chunk louder than my "tools of choice" are... and considering the distance (chronologically speaking at least) from my experience I may be overestimating the attenuation. I can easily say it went from 'very uncomfortable levels' to 'only slightly jarring' - I think the responsiveness alone was enough of a wow-factor that it allowed a (possibly false) sense of security in it as well.

Interestingly (and to return to the topic) that is one of the most difficult pitfalls regarding subjective analysis of audio gear as well... the first time a dramatic change occurs - whether new speakers, a significantly more powerful or accurate amp, etc. the initial response is usually "wow, that sounds so much better." Yet once familiarity sets in, or better yet measurements are taken, the realization may be that it's just doing a different set of things 'right' and has introduced some new 'wrongs' as well.

Of course, confirmation bias works both ways... and it's just as easy to fall into the "the chart of this looked so much better... it just has to sound way better as well" - when it's likely you can't actually tell the difference in a blind test.
 
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Not sure what your problem with Sal is, and you've posted something like this several times. Perhaps you might dial it back a few notches?

(Yes, I've been guilty of similar things)
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"But of course when the hoards of believers decend over some fact that shakes one of their closely held delusions, we're expected to shut up and not argue back too strongly. How dare we ask for supportable evidence for any ridiculous claims the believers present. The real problem is our ears or gears of course and you might even get banned for being right." -Sal1950

“As I've said a number of times here, when all attempts to inject true scientific paths and common sense fall on deaf ears, all that's left is ridicule the wrongheadedness.” -Sal1950

“That's why sometimes a good hard smack upside the head works better than anything.Problem with the internet is, it's so hard to reach out and touch someone.” -Sal1950

Are you requesting that Sal have a safe space? I assume you extend that sentiment to all others here as well?
 

Sal1950

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Not sure what your problem with Sal is, and you've posted something like this several times. Perhaps you might dial it back a few notches?

(Yes, I've been guilty of similar things)
Oh I see now, he's on my ignore list, pay him no attention.
 

Blumlein 88

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There are a several really good electronic ear muffs or shooters. Check various gunsite reviews; I've lost track of the really good ones. My friend has several pair. The Etymotic ear plugs for musicians are good but I need something more robust (more attenuation) for shooting. When I do it, which is rare these days, but a 12 gauge or 44 magnum will generate some noise But, what do I care, I play trumpet! :D
Well I've some Peltors which should do the trick. I see the Etymotics don't really spec all that much attenuation. The Peltors work really well for grass cutting and have an input so I can feed music from my phone.
 

Sal1950

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DonH56

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There are a number of Etymotic models. Some of the best for musicians, which is where I have heard of then most often, are fairly low in attenuation (6-9 dB for the ones I've used) but maintain a relatively flat frequency response. They have other lines with much higher attenuation, but cost a lot more than cheap foam or muffs.

I switched to muffs because I read too many horror stories about foam plugs not properly fit providing little attenuation then had one fall out (after years of "oh, he must be stupid, that could never happen to me" comments, natch). I've been too cheap to go electronic but if and when I get back on the range more frequently I will have a pair. For $300 ~ $350 it's cheap insurance to help ensure I'll keep enjoying the array of Salon2's downstairs.

Wait, what was this thread about? Oh, yeah... Big SS amps do a much better job of reproducing gunshots than my old Eico EL34 amp. How's that for a segue? :)
 

MattHooper

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Not sure what your problem with Sal is, and you've posted something like this several times. Perhaps you might dial it back a few notches?

(Yes, I've been guilty of similar things)
I'm finding agtp's badgering of Sal tiresome and uncalled for. I'm sure there's another forum here they could hash that out, but maybe the bat-signal for a mod could go up at this point?
 
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