How dumb is this? It sounds great! (-15dB "manual preamp gain" in Dirac Live)

[sheninat0r]

I use Dirac Live with my 2.0 PC setup (Chane A1rxc + SMSL AL200) and I recently did something for fun that has produced a shockingly pleasant listening result: I manually dragged down the target curve points between -10 and -20dB to flatten the bass response down to 20-40Hz. After turning up the amp volume, this is the best that my desktop system has ever sounded. There is no audibly unpleasant distortion at my maximum listening volume, even when I drag the curtain down to 17Hz. Is there any reason for me not to leave it like this for good?

 

[staticV3]

Doing this achieves the same thing as leaving the target curve up high but allowing Dirac to boost bass by 20+dB.

Either way you'll give up loads of headroom, but as long as you can still achieve your desired loudness and there's no audible distortion, all is good.

 

[thewas]

So large difference filters sound in my experience usually very artificial and lifeless, so I would recommend also checking by listening and comparing to less aggressive ones if this is the case.

 

[ppataki]

I use Dirac Live with my 2.0 PC setup (Chane A1rxc + SMSL AL200) and I recently did something for fun that has produced a shockingly pleasant listening result: I manually dragged down the target curve points between -10 and -20dB to flatten the bass response down to 20-40Hz. After turning up the amp volume, this is the best that my desktop system has ever sounded. There is no audibly unpleasant distortion at my maximum listening volume, even when I drag the curtain down to 17Hz. Is there any reason for me not to leave it like this for good?


View attachment 441657

Can you please perform verification measurements with REW and send them here?
Like with the target curve being 'where it shall be' vs the target curve being pulled down?
Thank you

 

[amirm]

Is there any reason for me not to leave it like this for good?

As long as you have a ton of amplification, no. I have had even stock DIRAC negative gain cause issues.

 

[Old_School_Brad]

I also apply cuts, just not as aggressively as you, it does require a lot of downstream gain.

What you're doing, however, is pushing the speakers to reproduce frequencies below their natural roll-off. I wouldn't recommend that. But if it sounds good to you..

 

[Tell]

You might get more noise as well, but if it's not audible then it's not a problem

 

[Sir Sanders Zingmore]

It does seem like a very aggressive curve. But in general (putting aside that rolloff at the low end), isn’t it good practice to have your target curve below (or equal to) the lowest dip in your frequency response?
I thought that would mean Dirac only cuts and never boosts.

 

[Sokel]

DIRAC does its thing for the targeted level.
Now take everything backwards to see what happens.

(at such an experiment I would use RT thermometers everywhere and make sure I have LOTS of amplification on tap)

Verifying with REW will also be a good sanity check.

 

[Old_School_Brad]

It does seem like a very aggressive curve. But in general (putting aside that rolloff at the low end), isn’t it good practice to have your target curve below (or equal to) the lowest dip in your frequency response?
I thought that would mean Dirac only cuts and never boosts.

Yes, it helps you avoid clipping and gives you unlimited cut capability, so you can shape the curve exactly how you want.

The downsides are that it requires a lot of downstream gain and there’s a potential risk of audible noise due to the increased gain levels.

 

[sigbergaudio]

It does seem like a very aggressive curve. But in general (putting aside that rolloff at the low end), isn’t it good practice to have your target curve below (or equal to) the lowest dip in your frequency response?
I thought that would mean Dirac only cuts and never boosts.

In theory yes, but however you see it, the curve represents a 15-20dB increase below 100hz. Rarely a great idea.

In practice this is what he has done;

 

[Sir Sanders Zingmore]

In theory yes, but however you see it, the curve represents a 15-20dB increase below 100hz. Rarely a great idea.

In practice this is what he has done;

View attachment 441851

Ok I don't understand how his original line is equivalent to your higher one.
As I see it, the original line cuts all frequencies to the right of 100Hz (assuming that's where the dotted vertical line is). Sure it boosts frequencies to the left but only by about a 5dB from about -18dB to about say -13db.

With your line it is a 15-20dB increase but as I said, I don't see how that is what is actually being done (Almost certainly I'm wrong but I don't understand why?)

 

[Old_School_Brad]

Ok I don't understand how his original line is equivalent to your higher one.
As I see it, the original line cuts all frequencies to the right of 100Hz (assuming that's where the dotted vertical line is). Sure it boosts frequencies to the left but only by about a 5dB from about -18dB to about say -13db.

With your line it is a 15-20dB increase but as I said, I don't see how that is what is actually being done (Almost certainly I'm wrong but I don't understand why?)

Think of lifting the entire curve as what's happening when turning up your volume knob.

 

[staticV3]

With your line it is a 15-20dB increase but as I said, I don't see how that is what is actually being done (Almost certainly I'm wrong but I don't understand why?)

The effective, final filter response will always be a pure cut filter.

Any boost that Dirac does is automatically negated by an equivalent preamp.

Either Dirac boosts bass by 20dB, then attenuates everything by 20dB so that bass ends up at 0dB and everything else at -20, or you align bass at 0dB from the get go and let Dirac cut everything above by 20dB.

Either way, the final filter has bass at 0 and everything else at -20.

The whole paranoia about boost filters is a relic of the analog era and simply does not apply to competent DSP.

Here, all that matters is the final filter response, not whether you arrived at it using cut filters or boost filters+preamp.

 

[Sokel]

Think of lifting the entire curve as what's happening when turning up your volume knob.

That's why I said one has to think of it backwards

 

[Pareto Pragmatic]

All that matters is that you like the sound better, that means success.

I could not find frequency response for the Chane A1rxc, but based on the A1.... I have to wonder why the bass is rolling off that early? How are things set up, are they close to a wall or do they have a lot of space behind them? Because that graph sure looks like a rear ported speaker pulled out from the wall.

 

[sheninat0r]

Can you please perform verification measurements with REW and send them here?
Like with the target curve being 'where it shall be' vs the target curve being pulled down?
Thank you

I did a quick 3-way comparison between Dirac off, stock target curve at 0dB, and my custom curve. My target curve seems to be effectively bypassing Dirac's +10dB boost limit? These sweeps were created with MMM and were level matched approximately by ear.

The stock Dirac result (purple) is consistent with what shows in the Dirac UI:

All that matters is that you like the sound better, that means success.

I could not find frequency response for the Chane A1rxc, but based on the A1.... I have to wonder why the bass is rolling off that early? How are things set up, are they close to a wall or do they have a lot of space behind them? Because that graph sure looks like a rear ported speaker pulled out from the wall.

I am running them sealed with the provided foam plug in the ports. My desk is in a corner and both speakers are less than 5 inches away from a window and a wall, respectively.

 

[ppataki]

I did a quick 3-way comparison between Dirac off, stock target curve at 0dB, and my custom curve. My target curve seems to be effectively bypassing Dirac's +10dB boost limit? These sweeps were created with MMM and were level matched approximately by ear.
View attachment 441890

The stock Dirac result (purple) is consistent with what shows in the Dirac UI:
View attachment 441902


I am running them sealed with the provided foam plug in the ports. My desk is in a corner and both speakers are less than 5 inches away from a window and a wall, respectively.

Now you need to check the distortion curves
If they look fine, then I guess you can just feel free to use your pulled-down target curve

 

[Pareto Pragmatic]

I am running them sealed with the provided foam plug in the ports. My desk is in a corner and both speakers are less than 5 inches away from a window and a wall, respectively.

Plugs will change the bass, but I don't know how they would do unplugged that close to a wall. If you have not tried it, you might as well give it a shot and see what you think.

Now you need to check the distortion curves

Likely super distorted in the low bass, at any significant volume, that's my guess. I would likely roll those off steeply after 60 myself, ported. Or go small sub to get down to 40 cleanly and cross them over at ~90hz with the plugs. I wouldn't need lower for a desk situation.

 

[sigbergaudio]

The effective, final filter response will always be a pure cut filter.

Any boost that Dirac does is automatically negated by an equivalent preamp.

Either Dirac boosts bass by 20dB, then attenuates everything by 20dB so that bass ends up at 0dB and everything else at -20, or you align bass at 0dB from the get go and let Dirac cut everything above by 20dB.

Either way, the final filter has bass at 0 and everything else at -20.

The whole paranoia about boost filters is a relic of the analog era and simply does not apply to competent DSP.

Here, all that matters is the final filter response, not whether you arrived at it using cut filters or boost filters+preamp.

This is wrong, in the sense that if he turns the volume up to where the general volume level is equal to what it is without equalization (which it is reasonable to assume that he will want to do), he will have an effective boost of 15-20dB in the bass.