How does one with age-related HF hearing loss achieve "air" in sound system?

[MarcT]

Yes, I know this could open a can of worms, but, even with my HF hearing loss, when I hear a live drum set with cymbals, I still hear that "shimmer" and "airiness" of the cymbals. But with most every sound system I've heard, including my own, I don't hear that. I'm mainly asking this with regard to two-channel music. My speakers are KEF Q11 Meta, which I understand are somewhat rolled off in the highs. My system is in our pretty well damped family room, with full carpeting.

Obviously, the recording itself will be a major factor, but in general, what should one look to do in order to try to replicate that live sound? Thanks for any advice.

 

[Bwaslo]

PEQ is how.
I have age related HF loss, I compensate by a boost above ~5kHz, works great for me. That still won't give the bouncing-around-the-club-walls shimmer, though, you need multichannel or directional ambience radiators for that.

 

[staticV3]

First thing I'd do is use Parametric EQ to counteract the downward tilt that KEF introduced with the Q Series with MAT.

Though the tilt is well reasoned for in KEF's whitepaper, it probably just doesn't work well for you, and that's just fine.

Here's an easy 3-band preset which matches the Q11M's Listening Window response to that of the Blade 2 Meta:

Preamp: -7.0 dB
Filter 1: ON PK Fc 920 Hz Gain 1.5 dB Q 2.2
Filter 2: ON PK Fc 9000 Hz Gain 1.8 dB Q 3.8
Filter 3: ON PK Fc 17000 Hz Gain 5.1 dB Q 0.1

That should give some sparkle back to you.

 

[GalvaoRod]

Same problem with me (I´m 57). I use this device to get some soft curves that fit my ears. This model demands some learning time, but it´s not expensive.

Behringer DEQ2496 Ultracurve Pro DSP Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Behringer DEQ2496 Ultracurve "2-channel Equalizer and Mastering Processor." It was kindly loaned to me for testing from a member and has a retail cost of US $645 but I see it discounted to US $429. For those of you frustrated with my lead...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Oddball]

There are two separate issues at play.

Speakers rolling off early is not helpful for the aging folks as our hearing goes the opposite way. But that is form the most part in 12-15kz range if no specific hearing disorders except age. As noted, EQ boost in that range is the way to deal with that. It goes partially against the "common" wisdom where one should not EQ speakers past the room modes, but that wisdom is kind of lame anyway.

The second issue is to find the EQ curve that works best for you in your room and with your setup. That is a bit of a pickle as requires lots of back and forth. But once you understand what you want, it will be easier to make it happen.

 

[klettermann]

I'm 73 and with significant HF loss in left ear and only a bit in right ear. I finally got fancy hearing aids with 12 band PEQ. They tuned it up so both ears pretty nicely follow the Fletcher-Munson curves. The result was just terrific. It actually made a big improvement in imaging - not surprising when you think about it, but a very nice surprise. Before EQing your system so it sounds good to YOU, it'd investigate the hearing aids or you may make the system unlistenable for other people. Good luck!

 

[Duke]

Yes, I know this could open a can of worms, but, even with my HF hearing loss, when I hear a live drum set with cymbals, I still hear that "shimmer" and "airiness" of the cymbals. But with most every sound system I've heard, including my own, I don't hear that. I'm mainly asking this with regard to two-channel music. My speakers are KEF Q11 Meta, which I understand are somewhat rolled off in the highs. My system is in our pretty well damped family room, with full carpeting.

You might try adding an adjustable-level rear-firing or up-firing tweeter, to get more top-octave energy arriving via the reflection field. Ime this sounds more natural than relying entirely on boosting the highs in the direct sound. Aim the tweeter in a direction that is NOT "well damped", perhaps the ceiling. This will more closely replicate how the sound arrives at your ears from the cymbals in a live drum set, and the adjustability will hopefully allow you to crank up the highs in the reflection field without the direct-sound highs becoming too loud.

Also, one thing to be aware of is this: HF hearing loss isn't necessarily a TOTAL loss of the high frequencies; you can probably still hear much of those high frequencies if they are LOUD enough. And obviously a live drum set IS loud enough. So... maybe crank the volume and see if that helps?

 

[Gorgonzola]

I'm 81 y/o and don't hear a damned thing above 8 kHz at anywhere near "normal" volumes. I don't try to correct for this. My reasoning is that I want recordings to sound like real life -- which for me ends at 8 kHz.

 

[CptKaos]

I'm 73 and with significant HF loss in left ear and only a bit in right ear. I finally got fancy hearing aids with 12 band PEQ. They tuned it up so both ears pretty nicely follow the Fletcher-Munson curves. The result was just terrific. It actually made a big improvement in imaging - not surprising when you think about it, but a very nice surprise. Before EQing your system so it sounds good to YOU, it'd investigate the hearing aids or you may make the system unlistenable for other people. Good luck!

67 and also a music lover with HF hearing loss, good hearing aids and more important a good audiologist to adjust them will make a world of difference, I like the open cups as they allow natural lower freq's to be heard along side the amplified freq's handled by the hearing aids

 

[LTig]

One reason not yet mentioned why cymbals sound much better in live recordings is the loudness difference between live and playback - the latter usually being much lower. Fletcher-Munson shows a loss of high frequencies when playback is not as loud as the original. Loudness control in amplifiers (if they exist at all) usually just compensate for the loss in the lows. So raising the treble with tone controls or EQ is the way to go.

Regarding hearing aids my experience is very good - listening to recordings at home or live in the local opera house can sound better than without aids, even with a pair of the "cheap" type (got the Unitron Ativo M in January covered by health insurance, just payed € 20 instead of € 1500).

 

[LTig]

I'm 81 y/o and don't hear a damned thing above 8 kHz at anywhere near "normal" volumes. I don't try to correct for this. My reasoning is that I want recordings to sound like real life -- which for me ends at 8 kHz.

This is the best way if there is no additional loss at lower frequencies impeding speech intelligebility (in this case one must use hearing aids to prevent heavy loss of verbal communication in the long run). And your loss is much smaller than one might think - of the 10 octaves humans can hear you're missing just about one and a half octaves, so you still hear about 85% of the sound.

 

[LGD_]

Yes, I know this could open a can of worms, but, even with my HF hearing loss, when I hear a live drum set with cymbals, I still hear that "shimmer" and "airiness" of the cymbals. But with most every sound system I've heard, including my own, I don't hear that. I'm mainly asking this with regard to two-channel music. My speakers are KEF Q11 Meta, which I understand are somewhat rolled off in the highs. My system is in our pretty well damped family room, with full carpeting.

Obviously, the recording itself will be a major factor, but in general, what should one look to do in order to try to replicate that live sound? Thanks for any advice.

I am 76 and also have pretty severe HF loss - I wear hearing aids - but not to listen to my music system...

I am hearing stunning imaging, wonderful detail and spaciousness from my speakers - all without my hearing aids, on a 2 ch system.
I say "Wow" a lot when listening, it sounds that good to me.
The biggest improvement was due to room correction. I measured my room with a calibrated mic, and generated a correction EQ file in Room EQ Wizard.
That file goes into my player (HQPlayer), and corrects for room response. The difference is profound, in my case at least.

You may not want to go to that extent, but here's some things you might try:
1. Put a graphic equalizer in your system, and play with it, see what EQ settings help your hearing of the music.
2. If you have a good pair of headphones, listen to them (with and without EQ) and see how much of a difference you hear compared to your speakers.
That difference is removing the effect of your speakers and room acoustics, and should give you an idea of how much you may need Room EQ correction for your speakers (or not).

If you can hear good highs from live music, your ears should be able to do so at home too.

Good luck..

 

[klettermann]

I am 76 and also have pretty severe HF loss - I wear hearing aids - but not to listen to my music system...

>>>snip<<<

I'm a bit surprised - in a similar situation I kind of did the opposite, I think. A few years ago I built a dedicated room and went to great lengths to get it sorted out. I used MiniDSP Studio for EQ, timing, sub integration, etc. I didn't actually do much listening until I towards the end of it all though I had the hearing aids all along. I wasn't listening yet, just tuning by the numbers. When I did get down to listening, with hearing aids, I was floored at how good it was. I doubt it would have been the same if the order had been reversed. But.... who knows?

 

[Philbo King]

Yes, I know this could open a can of worms, but, even with my HF hearing loss, when I hear a live drum set with cymbals, I still hear that "shimmer" and "airiness" of the cymbals. But with most every sound system I've heard, including my own, I don't hear that. I'm mainly asking this with regard to two-channel music. My speakers are KEF Q11 Meta, which I understand are somewhat rolled off in the highs. My system is in our pretty well damped family room, with full carpeting.

Obviously, the recording itself will be a major factor, but in general, what should one look to do in order to try to replicate that live sound? Thanks for any advice.

The obvious answer:
1. send everyone with functional hearing out of the room
2. Crank up the treble till it sounds right for you
3. Stock up on spare tweeters, you'll need them soon