How do you set your high/ low pass filters, for sub speaker integration?

[Deleted member 48726]

Not everyone agree with everything Gedde recommends. Recommendations with regards to subwoofers can also change drastically depending on whether you employ DSP/EQ or not.

And the room.

I've done 20 different crossover configs with measurements before deciding which to use. I chose the one that was flattest at the point.

 

[My adventures in stereo]

And the room.

I've done 20 different crossover configs with measurements before deciding which to use. I chose the one that was flattest at the point.

Know exactly what you mean, used to do 6 db house curves but currently prefer the flat response, especially with the head room on offer from multi subs

 

[jhaider]

It was after reading Geddes Recommendations, that I started looking at changing the setting of high & low pass filters
He suggested no low pass filter & a very shallow high pass filter

Keep in mind when Earl developed his guidelines he was basing them on his experience with his bandpass subs that IIRC had a broad peak at around 70Hz and a rolloff of around 2nd order on either end. So even an additional 1st order filter would be acoustically 3rd order.

Another interesting thing I picked up about subwoofer integration, if I may quote some background info from Andrew Jones buried in the test bench section of a review:

"Why 5th order? ELAC argues that the premise of 4th-order (24dB/oct.) Linkwitz-Riley ("LR4") crossovers between speakers and subwoofers is basically flawed. LR4 crossovers were developed to give provide symmetrical vertical radiation when the sound waves are very small compared to room dimensions. At 2kHz, a typical midrange/tweeter crossover point, the sound wave is under 7 inches long. However, an 80Hz sound wave is more than 14 feet long! Sound waves behave differently when they approach room dimensions, than when they are tiny compared to room dimensions. See Chapter 6.1 of Dr. Floyd Toole’s "Sound Reproduction," 3rd ed., for a fuller explanation.

"While LR4 crossovers sum flat on axis, they do not provide constant power response. ELAC argues it is important to have a constant amplitude and power response when blending a speaker to a subwoofer at 50-100Hz, because of how these long sound waves propagate in rooms. That implies the speakers and subwoofers should be in phase quadrature rather than in phase. This phase quadrature relationship requires an odd-order crossover. ELAC arrived at their 5th order target experimentally, by calculating the effects on phase response at the crossover point of the inherent rolloffs in typical subwoofers and speakers. They found that 5th order was the least sensitive to the inherent rolloffs in subs and speakers."

 

[Deleted member 48726]

Know exactly what you mean, used to do 6 db house curves but currently prefer the flat response, especially with the head room on offer from multi subs

Yeah. And I can't honestly remember what crossover config it ended with. But I do remember that it was different slopes for high / low pass. Low pass being much steeper.
Afterwards I applied Dirac and measured again.

 

[My adventures in stereo]

Have given up on using dirac
Dirac kills my bass
Just using REW based EQ

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

Bog standard 80Hz. 12dB is the slope of the AVR, me thinks.

Dirac Live does the rest.

Control sweeps post Dirac looked "flat" (as flat as bass can be in a real room anyway :'D) enough to not bother any further. Ears can't hear anything that annoys them either.
Hilarious fact: I completely forgot about the phase settings, to this day I have no idea what they are at.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

Have given up on using dirac
Dirac kills my bass
Just using REW based EQ

Really? How?

 

[My adventures in stereo]

dirac even with a 6 db house curve would cause a huge dip in the 20 - 80 hz area
I have not tried it recently, will give it a shot with the present configuration and post the results

 

[Deleted member 48726]

dirac even with a 6 db house curve would cause a huge dip in the 20 - 80 hz area
I have not tried it recently, will give it a shot with the present configuration and post the results

Do please. It sounds very strange.
Edit: sorry, didn't notice you are the OP!
BUT! -I would try to mess around with the room simulator in REW and position your subs so the response looks acceptable.

You can add the number of subs you have. Start with just the subs, no mains. You can position the subs in the room by dragging them. And remember to fill out the top left with the correct room dimensions.

 

[Tangband]

Really? How?

Have given up on using dirac
Dirac kills my bass
Just using REW based EQ

Not strange at all. This is what Toole suggest in a recent thread:

What is your favorite house curve

OK. Next question for you folks. As far as I can tell there is no spinorama for the Focal Aria 926's, which happen to be my main speakers. However, Amir did do a spinorama for the Aria 906 standmount speakers. They use the same tweeter and mid driver as the 926, but lack the two woofers as they...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Deleted member 48726]

Not strange at all. This is what Toole suggest in a recent thread:

What is your favorite house curve

OK. Next question for you folks. As far as I can tell there is no spinorama for the Focal Aria 926's, which happen to be my main speakers. However, Amir did do a spinorama for the Aria 906 standmount speakers. They use the same tweeter and mid driver as the 926, but lack the two woofers as they...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Hmm. I don't see him suggesting that DSP is responsible for making the bass worse. What exactly in his post are you referring to?

 

[Ricardus]

I just moved and the old settings for my sub from my old house aren't correct anymore.

I literally shoot the room with Pink Noise and use a basic audio analyzer plugin and dial it in to being somewhat flat, and if I like the way it sounds in my main listening position I leave it there.

 

[Tangband]

Hmm. I don't see him suggesting that DSP is responsible for making the bass worse. What exactly in his post are you referring to?

1. The correct installement of the speakers in the room is most important. Much more important than dsp roomcorrection.

2. In a perfect listening room with perfect installation theres not much need for any room correction program, and If there is , its only useful for the rooms fundamental room resonanses ( wall to wall, floor to roof, wall to wall ) . All of those are below 80 Hz.

3. A DSP room correction wrongly used ( i.e correcting for reflections ) can make the sound MUCH worse than without it, especially outside the sweet spot, but can also be better in a bad room when having the loudspeakers at suboptimal placement.

Myself, - I use some GLM correction for my speakers but thats only because they cant be setup at the optimal spot, because of WAF. They are about 50 cm to long apart from each other in my room.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

1. The correct installement of the speakers in the room is most important. Much more important than dsp roomcorrection.

2. In a perfect listening room with perfect installation theres not much need for any room correction program, and If there is , its only useful for the rooms fundamental room resonanses ( wall to wall, floor to roof, wall to wall ) . All of those are below 80 Hz.
A normal good eq such as the one in ROON is often good enough.

3. A DSP room correction wrongly used can make the sound MUCH worse than without it, but can also be better especially in a bad room and the loudspeakers at suboptimal placement.

Myself, I use some GLM correction for my speakers but thats only because they cant be setup at the optimal spot, because of WAF. They are about 50 cm to long apart from each other in my room.

Of course. That's a given. But I don't have a perfect installation nor perfect room. And when I use Dirac I get a much much better sound than without. I couldn't live without to be honest. Why would anyone with Dirac use Roon EQ when the Dirac EQ can be applied to taste across the whole frequency spectrum.. It's just there, use it.
Would I like a dedicated listening room? -Of course. Not possible though. Like the majority.

 

[Tangband]

Of course. That's a given. But I don't have a perfect installation nor perfect room. And when I use Dirac I get a much much better sound than without. I couldn't live without to be honest. Why would anyone with Dirac use Roon EQ when the Dirac EQ can be applied to taste across the whole frequency spectrum.. It's just there, use it.
Would I like a dedicated listening room? -Of course. Not possible though. Like the majority.

As Toole said between the lines, we dont hear high Q dips or peaks as the microphone does. Theres also a difference regarding marketing and the real world - i.e - if the loudspeakers arent any good in the first place, no room correction program can make them great. It might be better to buy better speakers to begin with.

What is your favorite house curve

OK. Next question for you folks. As far as I can tell there is no spinorama for the Focal Aria 926's, which happen to be my main speakers. However, Amir did do a spinorama for the Aria 906 standmount speakers. They use the same tweeter and mid driver as the 926, but lack the two woofers as they...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Deleted member 48726]

As Toole said between the lines, we dont hear high Q dips or peaks as the microphone does. Theres also a difference regarding marketing and the real world - i.e - if the loudspeakers arent any good in the first place, no room correction program can make them great. It might be better to buy better speakers to begin with.

What is your favorite house curve

OK. Next question for you folks. As far as I can tell there is no spinorama for the Focal Aria 926's, which happen to be my main speakers. However, Amir did do a spinorama for the Aria 906 standmount speakers. They use the same tweeter and mid driver as the 926, but lack the two woofers as they...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I agree. Seek out a quality speaker with as linear response as possible. In your room it isn't though. Then EQ to taste.
No disagreement as I see it. What I don't understand is that your referred to his post IR to mine?

 

[My adventures in stereo]

todays calibration

1 pre dirac - flat eq/xo 100hz 18 db roll off on mains 30 db roll off on subs

2 Dirac 6 db house curve

3 dirac 6 db + SVS eq

Dirac behaved very well today, I was possibly not doing the flat eq in REW well previously
with dirac off, I get an additional 6 db of bass, when I feel like rocking out

 

[Sokel]

Why do you insist on the 100Hz xover?Your FR suggests that it would better at 80Hz where it would also correct the dip and peak there with some experimentation.

 

[dualazmak]

Regarding XO from sub-woofer to woofer, I believe we should be better to "objectively measure and see" the transient behavior of both SP drivers using tone burst signals around the XO fq, of course measurement of actual air sound at your listening position in your room acoustic environment; no matter how much and how deep theoretical discussion/approach we may have.

Such measurements should be applied for sub-woofer only, woofer only, and then sub-woofer+woofer; the results would give you really nice and deep insights for XO and transient sound characteristics of total air sound in sub-woofer to woofer coverage Fq zone.

This is really important in deciding the XO Fq, filter slope(s), polarities, time alignment (group delay), relative gains for your own sub-woofer and woofer in your room acoustics. The tightness (compactness) of transient response can be "objectively visualized" in Fq-time-gain 3D color spectrum using Adobe Audition and other software tools.

My primitive but intensive approach in this perspective would be of your reference and interest, I assume;
- Measurement of transient characteristics of Yamaha 30 cm woofer JA-3058 in sealed cabinet and Yamaha active sub-woofer YST-SW1000: #495, #497, #503, #507

 

[Deleted member 48726]

Why do you insist on the 100Hz xover?Your FR suggests that it would better at 80Hz where it would also correct the dip and peak there with some experimentation.