How Do YOU Monitor A Mix?

[restorer-john]

I knew I'd read that before! Are you the author, SarumBear?

The story I heard at the time is that Bob Clearmountain, one of the first of that new breed of 'name' engineers wanted a pair of monitors to carry with him from studio to studio so that he had a consistent reference, and he wanted something that he felt was representative of typical domestic hi-fi speakers. (However, this was refuted by the engineer Nigel Jopson recently that he was the first to use NS10. Possibly both stories were true as they were apart by an ocean.) The rest, as they say, is history.

and

Clearmountain in particular was (as he is now) a first-call producer/engineer for the biggest projects. Once he and a few others began to rely on the NS10, the phenomenon grew like a virus inhabiting a welcoming host: studios began to buy NS10s in their thousands in an effort to attract name engineers. Of course, in order to thrive, a virus needs a host to which it is particularly well suited, and this was provided by the rapidly increasing number of freelance engineers I described earlier.

Source: Sound on Sound, published 2008.

The Yamaha NS10 Story

Love or hate the Yamaha NS10, this unassuming little speaker has found a place in the studios of many of the world's top producers. We trace its history, and investigate why a monitor whose sound has been described as "horrible" became an industry standard.

www.soundonsound.com

The usual story goes that Bob Clearmountain, one of the first of that new breed of 'name' engineers wanted a pair of monitors to carry with him from studio to studio so that he had a consistent reference, and he wanted something that he felt was representative of typical domestic hi-fi speakers. It is sometimes also said, usually by those for whom the abilities of the NS10 are a closed book, that he chose the NS10 because it was the worst-sounding speaker he could find. That, as I say, is the usual story. The trouble is, it's not true: the real story, recounted by engineer Nigel Jopson in a letter published in Resolution magazine in 2007, does involve Bob Clearmountain (see Note 1), but is different in almost every other respect.

Jopson believes he was one of the first engineers regularly to use NS10s in the UK. His first pair was given to him by a producer just back from mixing a project at The Power Station in New York, after hearing that Rhett Davies and Bob Clearmountain had used a pair there while mixing Roxy Music's Avalon. However, Jopson goes on to say that Clearmountain himself recalls that NS10s were recommended to him by Bill Scheniman — who was the first engineer to bring a pair to New York, having used them at either Motown or Sunset Studios in LA. Bill Scheniman recollects that the pair of NS10s at Sunset (or was it Motown?) belonged to Grag Ladanyi, but that he had been convinced of their worth earlier, while working in Tokyo. Scheniman remembers using NS10s at two studios there: TakeOne, and another studio long-since forgotten. So, the most likely seed of the NS10's world domination was probably an unknown engineer at TakeOne studios in Tokyo — and not Bob Clearmountain looking for the worst speaker he could find!

The rest, as they say, is history. Clearmountain in particular was (as he is now) a first-call producer and engineer for the biggest projects, and once he and a few others began to rely on the NS10, the phenomenon grew like a virus inhabiting a welcoming host: studios began to buy NS10s in their thousands in an effort to attract name engineers. Of course, in order to thrive, a virus needs a host to which it is particularly well suited, and this was provided by the rapidly increasing number of freelance engineers I described earlier.

 

[sarumbear]

I knew I'd read that before! Are you the author, SarumBear?

I'm not the author. Phill is much younger than me. However, as I said on my post, it is a story that has been told many times over and it became a folklore.

 

[restorer-john]

I'm not the author. Phill is much younger than me. However, as I said on my post, it is a story that has been told many times over and it became a folklore.

I suggest editing 'your' post to reflect you have quoted (lifted text directly) from the author...

 

[Cbdb2]

Your in a new studio to hear a mix and you have no reference. You've listened to thousands of songs in your car. Which will give you a better idea? Both.

Same goes with NS 10s. If everybody has them you get to know what they do. And most engineers would listen to the mix on the large monitors the NS 10s and the horror tones, and try to make it sound great on all 3.

These days I'm sure the mix is also auditioned thru ipods.

 

[sarumbear]

Your in a new studio to hear a mix and you have no reference. You've listened to thousands of songs in your car.

What makes you think that a producer/engineer listens on their car much more than in a studio? They spend most of their lives in a studio, they even sleep in it!

 

[Cbdb2]

Many producers and engineers are freelance and work in a different studio every few months. New gear, new room new sound. Reread the line of mine you posted. And when there in the new studio they almost exclusively listen to the same album over and over, the one there making. And the best way to hear what a mix will sound like in a car, the only place many people will hear it is to listen to in a car.

 

[sarumbear]

Many producers and engineers are freelance and work in a different studio every few months. New gear, new room new sound. Reread the line of mine you posted. And when there in the new studio they almost exclusively listen to the same album over and over, the one there making. And the best way to hear what a mix will sound like in a car, the only place many people will hear it is to listen to in a car.

I respectfully disagree. You are making uninformed assumption.

 

[Cbdb2]

I respectfully disagree. You are making uninformed assumption.

Which part. That engineers are freelance? That different studios sound different? That listening in a studio is almost entirely to the project your working on? 30 years as a recording engineer/ sound designer has informed me. No assumptions, Ive been there, seen it. Where are you getting your assumptions?

 

[sarumbear]

Which part. 30 years as a recording engineer/ sound designer has informed me. No assumptions, Ive been there, seen it. Where are you getting your assumptions?

Mine are not assumptions. My profile is public. I had been in the industry since 1970. I retired from media production in 2011. It looks like there are differences between our markets.

 

[Ifrit]

NS-10 came out for a different reason. Late '70s was a transitional time in music recording. The divide between the engineer and the artist was blurring and the possibilities for recording engineers to become more creatively involved in the process of producing a record multiplied. This is the time I left Abbey Road as I was not a musician and I realise that I do not have future in a recording studio.

Suddenly these creative recording engineers held the power and some became minor stars in their own right and started to work as freelancers. This happened initially in the US but soon the British studios followed. This new breed recording engineer/producer carried with them a few items of favourite outboard, a few microphones, and a pair of Yamaha NS10s. Yamaha soon got on board and produced a vertical orientated Studio version. It was also less bright removing the need to use a tissue paper in front of the tweeter.

The story I heard at the time is that Bob Clearmountain who was one of the first of those stars wanted a pair of monitors to carry with him so that he had a known reference. He chose NS10 as he wanted something representative of typical domestic hi-fi speakers. (However, this was refuted by engineer Nigel Jopson recently that he was the first to use NS10. Possibly both stories were true as they were apart by an ocean.)

Once Clearmountain and a few other stars began to rely on the NS10, it became a phenomenon and studios began to buy NS10s.


It was widely known that many 70s mega-stars checked their final mixes on their cars. I know for a fact a few did as I was in their cars having brought the tape with me.

Note: I edited the words I used in the story above so that it doesn't use too similar phrases used in a piece published a while ago as pointed out by @restorer-john .

Nice. Every time I hear NS-10s, the blood comes out of my ears. Always loud to the point of treshold of pain, always bad.

And the stories about them are abundant. Glad I don’t have to deal with that pos anymore.

Cars, yes. Had to do the same a couple of times. Luckily, what I mostly do now doesn’t need checking in the cars. and most of what I do sounds good in the car when I happen to stumble upon it.

 

[Ported]

Nice. Every time I hear NS-10s, the blood comes out of my ears. Always loud to the point of treshold of pain, always bad.

And the stories about them are abundant. Glad I don’t have to deal with that pos anymore.

Cars, yes. Had to do the same a couple of times. Luckily, what I mostly do now doesn’t need checking in the cars. and most of what I do sounds good in the car when I happen to stumble upon it.

I think a lot of folk think ns10s were used almost exclusively for mixes and that you would spend hours with your ears bleeding! Not so in my experience.. main mixing and any eq would need the best wideband speakers you could get (especially to get the bass right) but in many if these speakers it was difficult to untangle competing instruments | competing frequencies in the mids. Switch to ns10s to sort that out. If you've seen the waterfall from them they store very little energy giving clear view into a mix (which also makes them hard and unpleasant to listen to). I tried eq (ing) a track to make ns10s sound good was disastrous in my opinion in terms of portability. Checking a mix for balance... Very useful.

 

[Ifrit]

I think a lot of folk think ns10s were used almost exclusively for mixes and that you would spend hours with your ears bleeding! Not so in my experience.. main mixing and any eq would need the best wideband speakers you could get (especially to get the bass right) but in many if these speakers it was difficult to untangle competing instruments | competing frequencies in the mids. Switch to ns10s to sort that out. If you've seen the waterfall from them they store very little energy giving clear view into a mix (which also makes them hard and unpleasant to listen to). I tried eq (ing) a track to make ns10s sound good was disastrous in my opinion in terms of portability. Checking a mix for balance... Very useful.

That’s if you had those wideband speakers. not in the garage studio.
I still don’t get it, why would you need to switch to ns10s for balance in the mids if your full range monitors are just as good or better there. But that’s just me.
Yes, waterfall and all. And countless praise. Maybe I’m just too used to other monitoring, so I don’t care about “industry standard”.

 

[Ported]

This was a long time ago .. I suspect accuracy of speakers has vastly improved allowing more confidence on portability. Ns10s also possessed stable phase with close tolerance too.. I once recorded a singer who was deaf in one ear but hated headphones. If you created a perfect triangle with one ns10 out of phase for monitoring you could find a null spot for a mike with well over 20db suppression. Singers ear of course would not be null. With a bit of clever gating worked a treat!

 

[Cbdb2]

You see more Genelecs in studios than NS 10s nowadays.

 

[Ifrit]

This was a long time ago .. I suspect accuracy of speakers has vastly improved allowing more confidence on portability. Ns10s also possessed stable phase with close tolerance too.. I once recorded a singer who was deaf in one ear but hated headphones. If you created a perfect triangle with one ns10 out of phase for monitoring you could find a null spot for a mike with well over 20db suppression. Singers ear of course would not be null. With a bit of clever gating worked a treat!

Triangulating the pair of monitors for singer to avoid using headphones is done now too, with different speakers. Not a bad trick. Although I rarely use studios to record, rarer still something that needs overdubs or playing/singing to prerecorded material.

 

[Scrappy]

For pop this has always been the case since the 80s when album sales started to drop. Nothing has changed, album is no longer the money earner but a merchandise. Why would the artists or the labels consider us? Audiophiles stopped buying pop after the 70s. For a long while they wouldn’t even consider pop music as worthy and listen to it, unless it is for an effect: “low registers of the female voice,” “the sub bass,” or for testing surround, Atmos or up-mixing. For jazz & classical the aim is still to produce audiophile quality albums. Tracks are long and importance paid to entire albums, which is often required for classical pieces, whereas with pop, importance is often for individual songs. Tracks on their albums are even mixed with different people at different studios.

There had been and still are pop stars who cares on sound quality. The late George Michael was one and I find Harry Styles to be another. His recordings are now reaching the quality achieved by Alan Parsons in the 70s. I hear from the grapevine is that he is an audiophile. I personally know that George definitely was.

I’ve sent copious gear out for Harry Styles’ tours. I read articles on the industry rags, and saw the pics of his costuming. Got me wondering what the music is, so I gave it a listen on my IEM I always have. Damn if it isn’t very good pop music. I remarked to my roadie buds on that tour, “holy hell them’s actually good tunes!” It is what it is, same with Dua Lipa….. DuLip mixes have the best-done low-end f in ever. It’s nuts.

 

[sarumbear]

I’ve sent copious gear out for Harry Styles’ tours. I read articles on the industry rags, and saw the pics of his costuming. Got me wondering what the music is, so I gave it a listen on my IEM I always have. Damn if it isn’t very good pop music. I remarked to my roadie buds on that tour, “holy hell them’s actually good tunes!” It is what it is, same with Dua Lipa….. DuLip mixes have the best-done low-end f in ever. It’s nuts.

Both musicians indeed are very good. I wish many members here forget about their age, stop acting as our fathers did to the Beatles and listen to these artists' music, critically. Obviously tastes do change and everyone is different but their quality at least can be acknowledged. Afterall there are copious amount of soundscape tracks shared here but I haven't noticed those two musicians' tracks to be shared so far.

 

[Scott Ames-Messinger]

NS-10 came out for a different reason. Late '70s was a transitional time in music recording. The divide between the engineer and the artist was blurring and the possibilities for recording engineers to become more creatively involved in the process of producing a record multiplied. This is the time I left Abbey Road as I was not a musician and I realise that I do not have future in a recording studio.

Suddenly these creative recording engineers held the power and some became minor stars in their own right and started to work as freelancers. This happened initially in the US but soon the British studios followed. This new breed recording engineer/producer carried with them a few items of favourite outboard, a few microphones, and a pair of Yamaha NS10s. Yamaha soon got on board and produced a vertical orientated Studio version. It was also less bright removing the need to use a tissue paper in front of the tweeter.

The story I heard at the time is that Bob Clearmountain who was one of the first of those stars wanted a pair of monitors to carry with him so that he had a known reference. He chose NS10 as he wanted something representative of typical domestic hi-fi speakers. (However, this was refuted by engineer Nigel Jopson recently that he was the first to use NS10. Possibly both stories were true as they were apart by an ocean.)

Once Clearmountain and a few other stars began to rely on the NS10, it became a phenomenon and studios began to buy NS10s.


It was widely known that many 70s mega-stars checked their final mixes on their cars. I know for a fact a few did as I was in their cars having brought the tape with me.

Note: I edited the words I used in the story above so that it doesn't use too similar phrases used in a piece published a while ago as pointed out by @restorer-john .

You’re using the subject “I” here, but it sounds like this isn’t you from another post? I’m very confused. Could you clarify?

 

[Philbo King]

I tried listening in our Rav4 and the bass was severely overhyped. Then I took a short drive with my cellphone audio spectrum analyser running and found out why - almost all the road noise is bass. So the audio system is really set up to overcome road noise rather than for any sort of audio accuracy...

I have studio monitors that are flat from 35 to 20kHz within 2 dB. Listening on a subpar system can only lead me astray. Reminds me of a gearspace mastering forum thread where a guy wanted monitors that would make his mixes sound better on iPhone speakers. Aiming for the lowest common denominator makes everything worse.

 

[sarumbear]

You’re using the subject “I” here, but it sounds like this isn’t you from another post? I’m very confused. Could you clarify?

What do you want me to clarify. Maybe you can read my profile and ask specific questions?