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How do you know if it can sound better?

Peluvius

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I guess the title says it? Personally speaking I don't know how good it can sound and even then am I "colouring" the sound to lean towards my personal psychoacoustic preferences rather than moving towards what was recorded? How do you get a reference for best in your listening room and inside your own head?
 

majingotan

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Don't colour it and just crank it up loud seriously! Also, find well mastered tracks that have very good dynamic range, at least above 10 for best sound quality

I recommend this album at over 105+ dB peak SPL listening for best sound quality

Capture.JPG



Currently listening to DR14 Jpop marching band genre and have the volume to over 100+ dB SPL peaks with my Aeon X Open. It sounds so realistic and huge like concert hall at those SPLs :)

Capture.JPG
 
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MaxwellsEq

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You can't. Which is why the first goal is to minimise noise in the chain The second goal is to minimise distortion. Finally, listen to as much live unamplified music as possible so you develop your ability to understand it.
 
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Peluvius

Peluvius

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You can't. Which is why the first goal is to minimise noise in the chain The second goal is to minimise distortion. Finally, listen to as much live unamplified music as possible so you develop your ability to understand it.

Yes, the questions were somewhat rhetorical. Listening to live unamplified music is not as easy these days as it used to be unfortunately.

Does that mean we have a generation coming along that just don't know what good sounds like?

During the last 30 odd years I have had an interest in sound, I have always listened for incremental improvements in sound where possible but sometimes relied on others opinion to make a purchase here or there. Was it better or was if just different (or perhaps even worse)....

More recently I have taken the approach to try to use the same or similar equipment that was used in the mastering and recording process as far as practical although that approach also has limitations.
 

Digby

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There are, at least, two schools of thought:

1) Have the equipment reproduce the recording as accurately as possible
2) Find a sound 'character' you like and run with it

I find myself more and more in the latter camp. I don't think my tastes are wildly divergent, but I think the source material (stereo recording, limited in its ability to capture real sound) and the mastering (who knows how good the engineer and his ears are) adds such distortion/changes to the sound as it was presented live, that perhaps almost anything is up for grabs.

Then add the variables of your room response, how loud you like to play your music (and others I haven't accounted for) and there is no way what two loudspeakers can reproduce is anything close to an accurate representation of a live sound.

This is why I'm starting to favour the latter more and more. Obsessing about purity to stereo signal seems, to me, a bit like saying Quentin Blake's drawings for Roald Dahl are 'true to life'. They are interesting and evocative, but true to life....no. The same holds true with stereo and I treat it as such.
 
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Peluvius

Peluvius

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Don't colour it and just crank it up loud seriously! Also, find well mastered tracks that have very good dynamic range, at least above 10 for best sound quality

I recommend this album at over 105+ dB peak SPL listening for best sound quality

Currently listening to DR14 Jpop marching band genre and have the volume to over 100+ dB SPL peaks with my Aeon X Open. It sounds so realistic and huge like concert hall at those SPLs :)

Loudness can certainly deliver an impact. I think if I listened at 105db, I would have no wife and angry neighbours. You must live on acreage?
 

Thomas_A

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I guess the title says it? Personally speaking I don't know how good it can sound and even then am I "colouring" the sound to lean towards my personal psychoacoustic preferences rather than moving towards what was recorded? How do you get a reference for best in your listening room and inside your own head?
Stereo or multichannel? If you go beyond what was recorded for stereo you can upmix to atmos. True to the original recording it is not, but the illusion may be more true to the original event.
 
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Peluvius

Peluvius

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Stereo or multichannel? If you go beyond what was recorded for stereo you can upmix to atmos. True to the original recording it is not, but the illusion may be more true to the original event.

Both. I have what I consider to be a great 2.1 system and a great 5.1. I generally rely heavily on references wherever any degree of precision is required (take time or distance for example). What is my reference for what I am hearing in my home?
 

Thomas_A

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Both. I have what I consider to be a great 2.1 system and a great 5.1. I generally rely heavily on references wherever any degree of precision is required (take time or distance for example). What is my reference for what I am hearing in my home?n
The reference for me is human voices. I usually react when they sound unnatural. An on-axis response within +/- 2 dB for mains, wide and even disperson up to 8 kHz with a slight dip 3-4 kHz is my base. Adding Atmos when recordings are good for that. And the usual care for reducing reflections of sound coming from the speaker direction.
 

JeremyFife

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What do your room measurements look like? Issues there may be fixable... that in turn might be seen as an improvement (reduction in colouration) and providing a clean baseline for any new change - if your FR follows a standard curve then that's one reference point.

If your kit is competent and your amp is not driven into clipping... probably just personal preference after that.
 

FeddyLost

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How do you get a reference for best in your listening room and inside your own head?
Find your reference tracks, take artists and sound engineer hostage and tweak your system until they say records sounds exactly like they intended to.
It's the only realistic way of adjusting transfer function of your "track-equipment-room" system to intended reality.
Unfortunately, it will not work for artists that already passed away.

More realistic way is to find studio and equipment that was used for mastering your favourite tracks and try to recreate it in your room as good as possible.

And if all this impossible, one can strive to get system without obvious defects it terms of sound reproduction. It's still not easy, but can be done in normal living room.
 

Mart68

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I would say visit a professional recording studio or mastering suite and have a listen there. If you're close at home to the level of clarity they get there then that's about it really. The hobby is called 'High Fidelity' not 'Absolute Fidelity'. There's a limit to how good it can be.
 

Bugal1998

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I guess the title says it? Personally speaking I don't know how good it can sound and even then am I "colouring" the sound to lean towards my personal psychoacoustic preferences rather than moving towards what was recorded? How do you get a reference for best in your listening room and inside your own head?

I don't think you can ever really know. But...

My approach has been to wander into any and every high-fi/home theater store I come across during travels all over the country (schedule permitting). And as others suggested, see about a visit to a highly/regarded and we'll engineered studio (or two, or three). Visit audio shows.

Take note of the good and not so good in every system (timbre, clarity, dynamics or liveliness, spaciousness, bass response, etc., etc.). And as others suggested, make sure you're using high quality source material.

And then follow the science for the gear you select and how you setup and treat your room (particularly if it's a dedicated space).

If you do it right, you'll still never know if it could sound better, but it will sound so good you'll stop caring.

Something I've noticed as my equipment improved and my listening space and system setup improved is that I enjoy a wider and wider variety of music, and tracks with nuance and ambiance became more enjoyable. And yeah, I can hear the deficiencies in mediocre tracks as well.

Unless you hire a respected expert to design a dedicated room and select top-tier performing (not necessarily top-tier cost) gear on day one, it will be a journey. Note what traits are most enjoyable for you, and keep an open mind.
 
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xaviescacs

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This is a very sensible question IMHO, and deeper that it may seem at first glance. It's on the root of why most people with a crap system simply say: "I don't need a better stereo, this sounds perfect to me". Not my love, it doesn't, it's a crap, but if you can't compare, who can blame you? How on earth you can imagine there is a better version of what you are listening? And furthermore, how can I convince you, just with my words, that you would enjoy music much more with a pair of genelecs?
 

majingotan

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Go see a movie in an IMAX cinema and you will notice quickly, very quickly.

Agreed completely! Loudness and dynamic range and zero noise and inaudible distortion are king (of course the system has to be able to produce those with inaudible distortion). This is with assumption that the room is well treated and DSP corrections are properly applied relative to listening position.

This is a very sensible question IMHO, and deeper that it may seem at first glance. It's on the root of why most people with a crap system simply say: "I don't need a better stereo, this sounds perfect to me". Not my love, it doesn't, it's a crap, but if you can't compare, who can blame you? How on earth you can imagine there is a better version of what you are listening? And furthermore, how can I convince you, just with my words, that you would enjoy music much more with a pair of genelecs?

It would be crap if the system can’t reproduce THX reference levels of 115dB peaks and nominal 85 dB SPL levels without distorting or amplifier overheating or running out of steam. If the Genelecs can reproduces THX reference SPLs without distortion indefinitely then music should surely sound phenomenal on them. I crank my Dan Clark Aeon X all the way up to 100+ dB SPLs i.e. THX levels when watching Dolby Atmos Blu-Ray movies and the experience is amazingly cinematic like without any audible distortion or noise since my headphone amp is plenty powerful enough to provide those SPL levels without distorting or clipping at peak SPLs (4W RMS @ 32 ohm load and 4.5W RMS @ 300 ohm loads which is plenty enough to power the Aeon X Open headphones)
 

Vacceo

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I would say visit a professional recording studio or mastering suite and have a listen there. If you're close at home to the level of clarity they get there then that's about it really. The hobby is called 'High Fidelity' not 'Absolute Fidelity'. There's a limit to how good it can be.
Seconded! I was lucky enough to play some cd's on a a friends's studio. It was, by the very nature of the environment, to get as close as possible to the source and nothing else.

Once you have listened to the source "as is" (or as close to as possible), you can get a frame of reference to realize that you want more treble, bass, wider radiation or whatever else.
 

diaolodoro

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You can't always know if you're close to the original recording because recordings can be very different from each other. For example an orchestral recording sounds completely different than pop music, because the way the artists used the microphones and mastered the song is completely different. Having a natural sounding system is always a good step but unless you know the equipment and the room of the recording, it's very hard to know if you're close to the original sound.
For me, getting a natural tone from acoustic instruments and voices is the most important thing. Other than that, if you're not in the studio you don't know how close you are to the original.
 
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Peluvius

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What do your room measurements look like? Issues there may be fixable... that in turn might be seen as an improvement (reduction in colouration) and providing a clean baseline for any new change - if your FR follows a standard curve then that's one reference point.

If your kit is competent and your amp is not driven into clipping... probably just personal preference after that.

My rooms are not perfect but measure well enough to be used in a critical professional context (although not from all seating positions). The tweaks now to "smooth a bump" here or improve a resonance etc... have very little/no discernible impact, maybe approaching the "different not better".

Find your reference tracks, take artists and sound engineer hostage and tweak your system until they say records sounds exactly like they intended to.
It's the only realistic way of adjusting transfer function of your "track-equipment-room" system to intended reality.
Unfortunately, it will not work for artists that already passed away.

More realistic way is to find studio and equipment that was used for mastering your favourite tracks and try to recreate it in your room as good as possible.

And if all this impossible, one can strive to get system without obvious defects it terms of sound reproduction. It's still not easy, but can be done in normal living room.

It is sort of like that isn't it? I have reference tracks that have served me well through the years and have absolutely helped me pick great over good but then you need the engineer or artists to take to an absolute. Let's not even go down the track of whether what I hear is the same as what you hear....

I have also incorporated as much studio gear in my own systems as far as is practical.

I would say visit a professional recording studio or mastering suite and have a listen there. If you're close at home to the level of clarity they get there then that's about it really. The hobby is called 'High Fidelity' not 'Absolute Fidelity'. There's a limit to how good it can be.

I spent the first part of my professional career in cinematography so whilst not focussed so much on sound, I spent my fair share of time in professional studios. Having heard them debate, I can tell you that two highly regarded sound engineers can have very different views of what good is from a mix perspective once you eliminate basic audio principles they apply. Maybe "absolute fidelity" could be an extreme branch of the hobby....:)

Go see a movie in an IMAX cinema and you will notice quickly, very quickly.

I don't have any IMAX cinemas near me that sound "better" than my system at home (and there we are with subjective again), perhaps I should say "that I prefer the sound of my system".....

Asking whether something sounds "good" or can sound "better" is personal, indefinite and subjective. It's a never-ending quest that leads you in circles. Don't fall into that trap.

Get a decent set of headphones. If you actually hear information of the 'phones that you don't hear on your speakers, then I would consider upgrading ...... maybe. (The cause might be a wonky room response.)
If not, then I wouldn't worry about it. Just relax and enjoy. :) Jim

I have been in that trap for years Jim :). Mostly enjoyed it too. Yes personal, subjective, indefinite, that's why I wanted to hear from you all. This forum seems to be filled with people who have a rational and for the most part realistic perspective on audio and acoustics and it is interesting to hear how people approach their own "sense of self" in this environment. Never really gone down the headphone route but maybe that is a path worth taking, thank you.
 

Vacceo

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You can't always know if you're close to the original recording because recordings can be very different from each other. For example an orchestral recording sounds completely different than pop music, because the way the artists used the microphones and mastered the song is completely different. Having a natural sounding system is always a good step but unless you know the equipment and the room of the recording, it's very hard to know if you're close to the original sound.
For me, getting a natural tone from acoustic instruments and voices is the most important thing. Other than that, if you're not in the studio you don't know how close you are to the original.
Going after the how the original performance of the music sounded in the studio is moot. The best you can do is getting close to the recorded source. Said source can be terrible for many reasons, but the standard of good gear is giving you the source, no matter its quality.
 
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