How do you hear headphone 'soundstage'

[Gitfiddle]

I just talked to a friend about headphone soundstage, after reading this thread. Neither of us knew anyone had anything other than a 3d effect from open back headphones.

Personally I get the effect with open back headphones the most, and IEM almost not at all. I'll give my subjective experience with open backs then.

I have tried He400se, Phillips 9500s, and Sennheiser 560's within the past 5 years and I find the soundstage to be the same for any of the three. Obviously I had no way to blind A/B test these (since the feel is a dead giveaway for what I'm putting on my head.)

I decided to make some subjective observations about songs that I recall triggering "soundstage" for me more than others. I listened to them again on hifiman he400se headphones while writing this.

1. Reverb is absolutely one trigger.

listening to Reckoner, by Radiohead, The tambourine shaker sounds like it is coming from outside of the headset slightly below it to the left. The drums sound like they are coming directly from the headset right driver itself. The guitar, when it starts playing, joins the tambourine shaker, but above it.

2. Very few sounds ever sound like they are coming from in front of me.

Weird fishes/Arpeggi, by Radiohead, at the very start has drumsticks tapping. This brief sound is one of the only time I can remember that happening in any song I listen to.

3. Left and right soundstage seem to be the most prominent.

In Fear of the Dark, by Iron Maiden, the drum cymbals seem to cascade outward from the headset drivers. Perhaps this is due to reverb.

4. Below the head, but not inside the body is something that occurs for me regularly.

In Childhood's end, by Iron Maiden, The cymbals at the start of the song pan from left to right... traveling from directly left, to below, and then directly right. Then back in the opposite direction.

5. Low frequency bass

Low frequency bass notes in most songs have the same "below the head; but not inside the body," feeling. However they do not pan left to right. From reading ASR I think that most low frequency bass is in mono? I would consider this "headspace" and not as pronounced as #4," but still an interesting thing my brain picks up on.

6. Sounds that "come from behind" are very recording dependent, but not as rare as in front.

Bubbles, by Yosi Horikawa, is a song that has many cascading sounds that start behind me and move forward. Letters, by Yosi Horikawa, is the same in that regard.

7. Voices in mono are "middle of the head." Boring, normal, dreary! No surprises here.

8. The louder music is past a certain point, the less soundstage I perceive. Cranking up the music is the one thing I can say, subjectively, reduces "soundstage," For me.

9. This is all subjective though! So treat my observations with skepticism. Assume it is 75% placebo, 15% brain, and 10% reverb. I do!

 

[MattHooper]

I don't get much of a "soundstage" with speakers either. I can hear the hard-panned sounds coming from the appropriate speaker but sounds in the center or toward the center are more vague. (That's with 2-channel stereo. Of course with surround I can hear the center speaker.)

I also never get a sense of stage "depth" with speakers or headphones.

That’s wild.

I presume you’ve heard properly set up stereo speakers with an appropriate listing position before.

So are you aware of any issue with your hearing that could cause you to not perceive the things so many other people perceive?

I perceive sound staging often with great depth , plenty of layering of instruments, with precise imaging (just as many other people do).

 

[Ahmonge]

That’s wild.

I presume you’ve heard properly set up stereo speakers with an appropriate listing position before.

So are you aware of any issue with your hearing that could cause you to not perceive the things so many other people perceive?

I perceive sound staging often with great depth , plenty of layering of instruments, with precise imaging (just as many other people do).

I also perceive the sound as lacking depth when listening with speakers, regardless of the room or equipment. I have only perceived depth of sound with Martin Logan electrostatic speakers in a large, well-conditioned room; there, it really did feel like an orchestra was playing.

 

[solderdude]

I have only perceived depth of sound with Martin Logan electrostatic speakers

Same for me.. electrostatic (highly beaming) speakers with absorbers behind it gave me the best sense of depth. Much more so than dynamic speakers.
With headphones I don't get any sense of depth.
It is just how my brain is wired.

 

[Ahmonge]

With headphones I don't get any sense of depth.
It is just how my brain is wired.

Similar wiring here

 

[MattHooper]

I also perceive the sound as lacking depth when listening with speakers, regardless of the room or equipment. I have only perceived depth of sound with Martin Logan electrostatic speakers in a large, well-conditioned room; there, it really did feel like an orchestra was playing.

Same for me.. electrostatic (highly beaming) speakers with absorbers behind it gave me the best sense of depth. Much more so than dynamic speakers.
With headphones I don't get any sense of depth.
It is just how my brain is wired.

Very interesting. I hadn’t considered that there were significant differences in how we perceive imaging sound stage and depth.

Though I care first of all about tone/timbre, I highly prize sounds staging and imaging, and regularly experience really deep imaging in my system. Sometimes it can almost seem limitless in depth, like I’m here across large halls.

 

[Gitfiddle]

Very interesting. I hadn’t considered that there were significant differences in how we perceive imaging sound stage and depth.

I would be very curious if there was any correlation between the way we think(verbal vs. visual) and how we perceive soundstage. I notice during music my mind goes almost full verbal, otherwise I'm a mix of the two.

 

[MattHooper]

I would be very curious if there was any correlation between the way we think(verbal vs. visual) and how we perceive soundstage. I notice during music my mind goes almost full verbal, otherwise I'm a mix of the two.

I’m not even sure what it means for a mind to go full verbal listening to a stereo presentation. Do you mean you’re mind starts to describe in language what you’re hearing?

By the way, this subject, along with my having just read certain subjective audio reviews, has me again, pondering the gulf I often feel between audiophiles like me and many ASR members.

As far as I can tell (which can be difficult due to the allergy to descriptive language around here), it seems that many ASR members just don’t listen the way I listen and don’t listen for the type of things I listen for. Which is not to say in any way whatever I’m doing a superior. Just trying to figure out why there seems to be sometimes this uncrossable bridge. Any attempt to build bridges with normal every day descriptive subjective language just sort of fall flat like spaghetti throw thrown out a wall that slides down to the floor.

And when I read certain subjective reviews, say of loudspeakers that I’m very familiar with, and I find myself thinking “YES! This person has put words the same things I noticed, and it had the same effect on me - they seem to be listening to the same things and caring about the same things….. and I would just never get this from anybody on ASR.”

This is why again I still hang out on the subjective forums as well where I can get those type of nourishing exchanges of subjective experience with some people who seem on the same wavelength.

(and as some people have pointed out before, part of this divide could possibly be the type of self selection bias of who would be attracted to ASR… seems to select for more “STEM subject” folks, fewer artsy fartsies (like me). It can feel like McCoy and Spock talking past one another

 

[Gitfiddle]

I’m not even sure what it means for a mind to go full verbal listening to a stereo presentation. Do you mean you’re mind starts to describe in language what you’re hearing?

Precisely that, along with audible thoughts (such as hearing parts of a song I just listened to between tracks) that sometimes lead to the old "song getting stuck in my head." In contrast, when I am preparing a meal I imagine the finished product and what it should look like. I'll see what vegetables to cut, and other things of that nature.

This is why again I still hang out on the subjective forums as well where I can get those type of nourishing exchanges of subjective experience with some people who seem on the same wavelength.

I can understand that. I always try and read some subjective reviews by owners if I can before making a purchase. I take that in along with the measurement data and use both to make a decision. For the decade or so me and friends were playing guitars like a religion, subjective reviews and our own ears in various guitar shops is all we knew back then.

These days I find subjective reviews highly important to reveal product flaws that measurement tests may not talk about at all. The number of headphone reviews I've read that show a teardown or talk about the joints being breakable that I would otherwise not know about is very helpful.

 

[Count Arthur]

Same for me.. electrostatic (highly beaming) speakers with absorbers behind it gave me the best sense of depth. Much more so than dynamic speakers.
With headphones I don't get any sense of depth.
It is just how my brain is wired.

Most headphones and earphones sound about the same to me, in terms of perception of sound-stage.

However, I can get a good sense of sound-stage with speakers, but I think you need a fairly "dead" room, too reflective and the clarity and and sound-stage falls apart.

Having said all that, I think a lot depends on the recording. Some recordings are more of a "wall of sound", whereas others are more focused, and you can get a nice illusion of individual instruments and voices being placed in space, in relation to one another.

 

[FrenchFan]

I have two low-end headphones, a SONY (closed) and
a Superlux HD681 (semi-open).

You can clearly hear the difference and
the increase in soundstage between closed
and open headphones.

There is already a noticeable difference
between headphones and speakers.

With speakers, the music comes from the front,
while with headphones, the music is located around the head.

In mono, you get the impression that the music
is coming from the top of the head and is pressed a
gainst the head with headphones.

It's a bit like listening to speakers with your head
forward (a strange position).

The difference between closed and open headphones is
not perceptible to me under the following conditions.

The music is in mono:

Music at the top of the head and pressed against the head.

The music is only on the left or right:

Music in the right or left ear, and that's it.

The soundstage manifests itself when the music is
between the center and left or right.

Under these conditions, for closed headphones, the music
is well-positioned but it sticks to the head; it feels like everything
is at the same distance.

For open headphones, it feels like the instruments
move away from the headphones, without affecting the volume;
that's when I best perceive the soundstage.

The soundstage is expressed a bit like Mickey Mouse ears.

I think this perception depends on the open headphones and should
be increasingly greater depending on the quality of
the headphones to increase this effect.

 

[solderdude]

I think this perception depends on the open headphones and should
be increasingly greater depending on the quality of
the headphones to increase this effect.

Perception depends on how the brain is 'wired'.
It also depends a bit on the driver-ear angle, distance and even driver diameter/shape.
Another factor can de the cable resistance (in case of a 3-wire cable).

It is not related to headphones being open or closed but can see why you would draw a conclusion like that when you only have 2 headphones.

 

[Chagall]

Perception depends on how the brain is 'wired'.
It also depends a bit on the driver-ear angle, distance and even driver diameter/shape.
Another factor can de the cable resistance (in case of a 3-wire cable).

I’ve read that the mere fact that some headphones physically touch the earlobes can diminish the soundstage effect. I would expect that a strong clamping force might have a similar impact....?

It is not related to headphones being open or closed but can see why you would draw a conclusion like that when you only have 2 headphones.

But with closed-back headphones, since they create higher acoustic impedance and produce a “vacuum effect” that makes the music feel stuck inside your head, so I think it's generally related. DCA addresses this to some extent with their ATMS system, but I think that’s more the exception than the rule.

Do you have any examples of closed headphones that compete with open ones?

 

[solderdude]

I’ve read that the mere fact that some headphones physically touch the earlobes can diminish the soundstage effect. I would expect that a strong clamping force might have a similar impact....?

That would rather depend on pad thickness and the amount of room that is available for the outer ear as well as seal and pad firmness.

But with closed-back headphones, since they create higher acoustic impedance and produce a “vacuum effect” that makes the music feel stuck inside your head, so I think it's generally related. DCA addresses this to some extent with their ATMS system, but I think that’s more the exception than the rule.

Do you have any examples of closed headphones that compete with open ones?

The vacuum effect is not open or closed back dependent but depends on the front volume. A sealed front volume can be present on both open and closed back headphones but is much more common for closed back headphones. The softer the pad and the more it seals (leather/pleather with soft foam) the worse this effect is (when a good seal is obtained).
So front volume seal dependent. All headphones with a sealed front volume are also seal dependent so breaking that seal results in less bass extension and some peaking in the lows.

I don't think it has any influence on soundstage (I prefer the term head-stage for headphones).

 

[Chagall]

The vacuum effect is not open or closed back dependent but depends on the front volume. A sealed front volume can be present on both open and closed back headphones but is much more common for closed back headphones. The softer the pad and the more it seals (leather/pleather with soft foam) the worse this effect is (when a good seal is obtained).
So front volume seal dependent. All headphones with a sealed front volume are also seal dependent so breaking that seal results in less bass extension and some peaking in the lows.

Sorry, front volume is the term for the space on the ear side of the driver? If the front volume is smaller, tighter, and of course sealed, that leads to more pressure build-up and, I assume, higher acoustic impedance?

But I don't think I've ever felt pressure build-up with an open-back (nowhere near the amount as with closed), so not sure how the vacuum effect happens with open-backs. Is the driver not letting air out?

I don't think it has any influence on soundstage (I prefer the term head-stage for headphones).

Interesting. To me, if there is pressure build-up (especially if I hear myself breathing or jaw movement changing the seal), my brain is constantly reminded "I'm wearing headphones", so the illusion of out-of-head sound is gone. However, this is physiological and maybe down to my sensitivity.

 

[solderdude]

Sorry, front volume is the term for the space on the ear side of the driver? If the front volume is smaller, tighter, and of course sealed, that leads to more pressure build-up and, I assume, higher acoustic impedance?

The best examples of this (closed front volume) is Audeze headphones.
When taking them off I always feel a 'suction cup' effect.

Pressure does not build up by the way. It is rather that pressure cannot escape.
There can be a little build-up though when the air heats up and expands and has nowhere to go and also when putting them on (and having a good seal) and the clamping force compresses the pads.
Most closed headphones with dynamic drivers have a small hole in the baffle or some cloth or paper covered material. This is to equalize pressure and/or is tuning related.
When headphones are labelled semi-open this usually refers to closed front volume (for bass extension) and open back. Often with pleather or leather pads.
Most open headphones have 'leaky' pads and some leakage (acoustic feedback resistors) for tuning and pressure equalization.
These are the headphones that are as good as immune to leakage (almost no change in bass when lifted a little)

But I don't think I've ever felt pressure build-up with an open-back (nowhere near the amount as with closed), so not sure how the vacuum effect happens with open-backs. Is the driver not letting air out?

As said ... depends on the pads and headphone design.

 

[Volutrik]

I feel like headphone soundstage is just a myth. Sound is being played directly on your ear. What one could think of being "soundstage" is sound being leaked from the headphone, so you hear the direct headphone sound + the sound coming around the headphones. This starts being even more interesting, to say the least, when people talk about soundstage on IEMs. Like... For real?

 

[solderdude]

Soundstage (headstage) is something that occurs in the brain. It is a '(re)construction' in the brain derived from binaural input (2 ears).
I reckon it is kind of similar as people 'filling in' information of the blind spot ?
The brain is handy in 'inventing' things based on input from its sensors. That does not seem to work exactly the same for all people.
Some people seem to have their brains wired in a way that they can actually get the sensation that sounds are coming from in front of them without the need to resort to electronic trickery.
Possibly tonal balance and reverb might do that for some people. Just not for the majority of people.
I don't think people reporting 3D from headphones are lying...
Alas, I seem to land in the majority of people that don't hear 3D with headphones.

 

[wiggum]

Soundstage (headstage) is something that occurs in the brain. It is a '(re)construction' in the brain derived from binaural input (2 ears).
I reckon it is kind of similar as people 'filling in' information of the blind spot ?
The brain is handy in 'inventing' things based on input from its sensors. That does not seem to work exactly the same for all people.
Some people seem to have their brains wired in a way that they can actually get the sensation that sounds are coming from in front of them without the need to resort to electronic trickery.
Possibly tonal balance and reverb might do that for some people. Just not for the majority of people.
I don't think people reporting 3D from headphones are lying...
Alas, I seem to land in the majority of people that don't hear 3D with headphones.

There is some research out there that states the soundstage is based on the notch heard around 10 kHz. You can see this notch in headphone measurements, but not IEMs.

If the notch is right of 10 kHz, the soundstage is elevated in front of you while if it is left of 10 kHz, it is below you.

 

[solderdude]

Funny thing though that notching the 10kHz with a filter does nothing for the sound stage.
Also many headphones actually have peaks there.
The 10kHz notch is caused by the 'ear' and in measurements by the fake ear (pinna + earcanal) and depends on the the fixture + pinna used.

This all makes the evidence of the 10kHz notch (Rtings) extremely 'thin'. At Rtings they thought it (along with the difference between a pinna + pinnaless (but with ear canal) was something they could 'rate' easily which was the goal. It was kind of determined by looking at a few headphone that were said to have good spatial effects.
Those 2 or 3 headphones all had similar 'effects' caused by the pinna and that became the target. The 10kHz dip is part of that pinna.
When you look at the (older) plots you will find the 'target' to be very close to the HD800 response.

I mean ... wouldn't it be great if all headphones with poor sound stage suddenly would get a good sound stage if we would just notch 10kHz.
Sadly that doesn't work.

In general (for a lot of people) a little recessed 2-5kHz seems to bring the illusion that the music comes from a bigger distance. That is exactly in the pinna-effect range.

Sound stage is personal (a perception = brain) thingy and what works for person A may not work for person B etc. This makes it hard to 'predict' how someone will perceive '3D' or 'depth' with head-/ear-phones as perception, head/ear geometry differs and headphones interact differently (depending on seating etc).
For IEM's there is insertion depth, seal etc that makes it a difficult thing to simulate as there is no pinna doing some of the work load combined with perception.
It also differs from speakers + room + placement yet again.

This means there is no single 'tell' for how sound stage will be perceived nor measured.