How different is a 30 yr old DAC vs a new one ?

[Platypus20]

In the spring of 1993, I bought a PS Audio Lambda CD transport, with a PS Audio Ultralink DAC, to go with my Conrad-Johnson tube amps and preamps and JBL speakers. I sold the speakers and bought a pair of Acarian Alon IV speakers, sold the C-J tube equipment and bought C-J solid state amp and preamp.The Lambda drive was serious failure, it went back to PS A, 3 times, they had it more than I did. Time passed (25+ yrs) the C-J equipment was sold and replaced by Benchmark Media amps and preamps, now only the speakers and Ultralink are still here from the original purchases.

Until the Benchmarks DAC 3Bs, the Ultralink has been in constant use for 30+ years. I somewhat recently bought a Parasound NC 200 Pre preamp that has a built in DAC (Burr-Brown 192kHz-24 bit), this is used in the back room stereo. For the last couple of weeks, I used the CD transport plugged into the built in DAC, today I bypassed the DAC and installed the Ultralink back in the system. The Ultralink and the built in DAC sound different, could it be that technology has changed that much in 30+ yrs, am just used to the sound of the Ultralink after listening to it for the 30+ yrs. The build in DAC sounds like the treble has been boosted, not that its objectionable, just slightly different. Not sure either is better than the other.

 

[Doodski]

Or... What if the PS A DAC is colored?

 

[sam_adams]

If you want to know how the PS Audio Ultralink DAC compares to modern offerings, send it to @amirm for testing. All questions will be answered. All fears will be allayed.

 

[Platypus20]

Or... What if the PS A DAC is colored?

Or worn

Could be anything

 

[Blumlein 88]

PS Audio UltraLink D/A processor Measurements

Sidebar 2: Measurements The UltraLink was as impressive on the test bench as it was in the listening room; its measured performance was excellent. Unless noted, the following measurements were taken from the balanced outputs. Testing was performed on both balanced and single-ended outputs; any...

www.stereophile.com

A few measurements. I've heard other Ultra Analog based DACs sound a bit soft in the treble. Don't have any measurements maybe they droop a bit though what is shown here is not an audible amount.

Also, high output in this DAC, did you match levels?

 

[Doodski]

Or worn

Not really. Any caps in the signal path (Picking off distortion and shunting to ground.) have to change value enough to make it change the cut-off frequency and for the resulting dB(s) value change at the output. The caps would have to change maybe 20% to make a significant change? I forget but it is a fair amount.

 

[Chrispy]

Not likely to be significant difference. Or you expect?

 

[Angsty]

I really can’t hear a difference between my 20+ yr old Bryston BP-25DA and my 2021 Topping D70s with CD-quality data.

 

[Doodski]

Not likely to be significant difference. Or you expect?

Is this question directed at me? If so I don't think it is a worry to be concerned about because the failure rate of caps in lower temp environments is decent. (When compared to a power amp, SMPS etc.)

 

[Chrispy]

Is this question directed at me? If so I don't think it is a worry to be concerned about because the failure rate of caps in lower temp environments is decent. (When compared to a power amp, SMPS etc.)

Not particularly unless you think it has some particular relevance?

 

[Doodski]

Not particularly unless you think it has some particular relevance?

Yes, it has relevance of course. Caps cause issues. Heat kills caps. DACs usually don't generate a huge amount of high temp heat.

 

[Chrispy]

Yes, it has relevance of course. Caps cause issues. Heat kills caps. DACs usually don't generate a huge amount of high temp heat.

So dac heat issues are prevalent in your repairs of dacs?

 

[Doodski]

So dac heat issues are prevalent in your repairs of dacs?

Actually if @ circuit level a DAC, DSP and RF amp if a mechatronics device all failed and it was not a surprise to troubleshoot one and find it to be bad. RF amps was especially fun but all responded well to freeze spray and a heat source and can be intermittent as well. These parts where SMD stuff.

 

[Chrispy]

So otoh modern dacs without these older configuations and in ic's instead, are far more reliable? accurate?

 

[Chrispy]

Actually if @ circuit level a DAC, DSP and RF amp if a mechatronics device all failed and it was not a surprise to troubleshoot one and find it to be bad. RF amps was especially fun but all responded well to freeze spray and a heat source and can be intermittent as well. These parts where SMD stuff.

LOL don't understand most of that. Not a tech.

 

[Doodski]

So otoh modern dacs without these older configuations and in ic's instead, are far more reliable? accurate?

Yes, they should be far more reliable. Accuracy is digital so it's good.

 

[Rja4000]

Buy yourself an ADC, like the Topping E1x2 OTG, as an example, and measure the frequency response of each DAC.

You may do that by burning a CD with a REW Periodic noise test signal at 44.1kHz, 16 bits, (REW RTA set for 32kFFT), -4.4dBFS, 40s duration ("save file", from REW generator window. Sampling frequency to be set in preferences)
Also burn a white noise.

Then run it and use REW RTA to display the FFT from the ADC input, with same 32k FFT and Rectangle function.
(More details on demand.)

NB: Be ready to be disappointed. You probably won't see any difference.
You may use this to set both DACs' output level to exactly the same (+/- 0.2dB) before comparing them by ear, though.

 

[GXAlan]

Oldest DAC measured here I think:

Denon DA-500 Vintage R2R DAC Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the vintage (?) Denon DA-500 DAC. It was kindly purchased by a member on the used market and drop shipped to me. Interest was to find historic products with something cool about them. In this case, it is the "alpha" processing in the DA-500 which...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[DWPress]

I too have some relatively ancient gear in my system and was curious about its actual performance. In my case an ADC made by MSB and I asked Amir if he'd measure it but understandably he declined given the vintage. So I measured it myself with pkane's Multitone app and, surprise, it didn't meet manufactures spec by quite a bit. I put up a post with my results MSB PAD-1 (90's era ADC). MSB claimed 112dB THD+N and I got around 85dB which is actually still quite decent if you look at modern 2nd tier offerings and certainly good enough to run my phono preamp into.

Bottom line - the chips and components they had to work with 30 years ago don't measure up (pun intended), there have been advances in DAC and ADC chips specifically that have improved measurement data tremendously.

2nd bottom line - can you hear the difference between -80dB and -120dB in regular music playback?

 

[kemmler3D]

Let's just get this out of the way, you need to level-match very precisely to do this kind of comparison. A little difference in volume can sound like a change in sound quality more than it sounds like change in volume.

Assuming you did that, it's conceivable the old DAC has a less steep filter or something, which could be on the order of +/- 1dB at 20khz?

Agree on sending it to Amir, would be interesting to go a bit further back on the DAC timeline.

2nd bottom line - can you hear the difference between -80dB and -120dB in regular music playback?

-80dB is already so low down that it would be very effing difficult to hear on a normal full-amplitude song. Doable if you take (say) a very quiet piano passage and jack up the gain like crazy to get the noise floor way up.