How concerned should I be on how a amp could affect overall sound signature ?

[Seany]

Same difference - unless the integrated is specifically designed to sound different.... (in which case one has to ask, is it actually high fidelity... but thats a whole different ball of wax).

An integrated, is a pre-amp and a power amp in one box - if properly designed, neither one of them will have its own "sound" - with seperates there can be matching issues with regards to load impedance (same as for speakers and power amps really) - these issues can have an impact on frequency response, etc... - so a mismatched pre and power can indeed end up with its own "sound" - properly matched that is not the case.

Integrated's are by design "properly matched" - so unless they were designed intentionally to alter the signal (wouldn't that be distortion, by definition!?) - they would not have a "sound".

Many preamps have intentional adjustment features - graphic equalisers, tone controls, loudness settings, or in the current generation Room EQ DSP's - these intentionally alter the sound in various ways.... but all preamps or integrated's that I know of, have a setting for direct straight through pure reproduction (ie disable all alterations and pass the signal through transparently) in which case they don't have their own sound.... (or should not have their own sound!).

There have been quite a few blind tests over the years, and when properly run, very few of the people who sat the tests have been able to differentiate between components... (includes preamps, integrateds and power amps, also CD players and other digital sources - does not so much apply to speakers and TT cartridges.... those are items where the flaws are legion.... )

I disagree 99% cause I can't be 100% sure when it comes to these things. I'm not even going to name them but there are some people who do reviews of these devices all the time that say otherwise for years. Are you telling me all of them are lying all the time ? I'm not buying it.

 

[ahofer]

Are you telling me all of them are lying all the time ? I'm not buying it.

Not so much lying, as allowing their biases to override their common sense.

Remember,:

• they are doing sighted listening, which makes them vulnerable to bias
• There is a well known bias to hear a change when you are listening for it
• Their living often depends on them hearing these differences, which creates a huge bias
• They don't volume-level, which certainly creates audible differences. Higher (normal) volumes always sound better
• It's nearly impossible to compare system differences across a few seconds, let alone minutes. Testing shows that people are much better at discriminating in instant tests
• Once people have invested in equipment, they cannot be torn from thinking it made a difference

Read up here, you'll be glad you did. The high end audio vending and reviewing business is a fetid Augean Stable and ASR will help you to divert the river to clean it out.

 

[Seany]

Not so much lying, as allowing their biases to override their common sense.

Remember,:

• they are doing sighted listening, which makes them vulnerable to bias
• There is a well known bias to hear a change when you are listening for it
• Their living often depends on them hearing these differences, which creates a huge bias
• They don't volume-level, which certainly creates audible differences. Higher (normal) volumes always sound better
• It's nearly impossible to compare system differences across a few seconds, let alone minutes. Testing shows that people are much better at discriminating in instant tests
• Once people have invested in equipment, they cannot be torn from thinking it made a difference

Read up here, you'll be glad you did. The high end audio vending and reviewing business is a fetid Augean Stable and ASR will help you to divert the river to clean it out.

Some of these people have been working in the audio field all their lives in different areas. Some I'm sure are dubious but can't be all of them. I understand what you're telling me but it is what it is. I know most of the difference really comes to what speakers are used so no need to convince me there.

 

[ahofer]

but it is what it is

Only what is supported by/unrefuted by evidence is. All else is speculation and social construction.

Go through a few of those blind tests. They are extremely revealing.

 

[BDWoody]

I disagree 99% cause I can't be 100% sure when it comes to these things. I'm not even going to name them but there are some people who do reviews of these devices all the time that say otherwise for years. Are you telling me all of them are lying all the time ? I'm not buying it.

So why did you ask the question in your thread title to begin with?

The consistent answer has been, don't worry as long as you have a decent amp with enough power.

You don't seem to want to accept this answer, nor do you want to learn to do basic measurements so you can see with your own eyes what is going on, so not sure what else you are looking for?

You seem to prefer the advice of the salesmen who are reaching into your pocket.

 

[Seany]

Actually you guys have convinced me definitely that it's really not that important and the sound is probably not nearly different going from one electronics to another as I originally thought. I've definitely gone a lot closer to you guys side and I think that's good. Plus there are other questions that I've asked and I got answers to that wasn't part of my original question. I still appreciate everybody's input.

 

[Ken Tajalli]

Opinion:

For competent amplifiers the only real difference should be their power limits.

Competent! that's the operating word.
There are amps that are not, so choose wisely, then don't worry about them.
Not all amps behave the same, even within their supposed power range.

 

[Verig]

Some of these people have been working in the audio field all their lives in different areas. Some I'm sure are dubious but can't be all of them. I understand what you're telling me but it is what it is. I know most of the difference really comes to what speakers are used so no need to convince me there.

There are many factors at play. One of them being yourself. Try listening in the middle of your work day. Then do the same in the evening after a nice shower, dim the lights. (Ok, in this experiment the ambient noise is very different too.)
You can try after a flu, even couple of weeks after.
Etc.
How many times have you seen any reviewer trying again? Let's say couple of months after the first test there would be a blind test. That would be interesting.

And of course there are certain things where differences are clear. I mean a tube amp and nCore really sound different. Mismatch of amp/speaker has an effect. What kind? Depends. There's an interesting test at Benchmark site where a bit demanding speaker is driven by low damping factor amp. The difference is quite visible in the measurements and easily in hearing range.
But really if there is no mismatch the differences are very hard to hear, or impossible.

I like reading reviews but really the conclusions which are just based on open listening and without any walkthrough of the test setup are not very valid.

 

[Seany]

You know if you guys are going to keep talking about it I'm just going to say it, but don't burn me too for it. I've really resisted not to talk about these people because I know almost all of you dislike them for whatever reason. But here are just three of them that been doing audio for a long time for hobby and for living.

Andrew Robinson
The British audiophile
Darko Audio

Have you guys watched any of these reviewers videos on YouTube when they do them on electronics ?? If you haven't then you really shouldn't be saying too much.

I would say out of the three of them Andrew Robinson is probably the one that makes a living off of this kind of stuff. But that doesn't make this guy a liar.

I know you guys think well they are paid and blah blah okay but they can only be in this business for so long if their completely BS'ing the people. Once again they can't be all lying about all this stuff all the time there's just no way, they couldn't get away with it in a long term.

I still meant what I said in post 166, I'm definitely not going to be swayed so much when buying a certain amp.

 

[BDWoody]

I mean a tube amp and nCore really sound different.

Oh?

If "Tube Sound" Is a Myth, Why Tubes?

Okay, is the variable resistor connected to a series resistor or is that a variable output 20 k ohm pot? I can't tell from the picture. If it is a variable output pot it should be fine. Max output impedance would be 5 k ohm at -6 db. And you'll be using it at a lower setting with an even...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[theREALdotnet]

Andrew Robinson
The British audiophile
Darko Audio

Have you guys watched any of these reviewers videos on YouTube when they do them on electronics ??

Yes, and there is always much laughter and merriment.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

You know if you guys are going to keep talking about it I'm just going to say it, but don't burn me too for it. I've really resisted not to talk about these people because I know almost all of you dislike them for whatever reason. But here are just three of them that been doing audio for a long time for hobby and for living.

Andrew Robinson
The British audiophile
Darko Audio

Have you guys watched any of these reviewers videos on YouTube when they do them on electronics ?? If you haven't then you really shouldn't be saying too much.

I would say out of the three of them Andrew Robinson is probably the one that makes a living off of this kind of stuff. But that doesn't make this guy a liar.

I know you guys think well they are paid and blah blah okay but they can only be in this business for so long if their completely BS'ing the people. Once again they can't be all lying about all this stuff all the time there's just no way, they couldn't get away with it in a long term.

I still meant what I said in post 166, I'm definitely not going to be swayed so much not buying a certain amp.

Some of the biggest BS there is. And the fact that they are doing it for a „long“ time makes it even worse as they still haven’t even understood some of the electrical engineering fundamentals by now (but mainly choose to ignore physics as it probably would hurt sales ).

They prey on that fact, that people can be talked into what they are supposed to hear (human bias) and not on (mostly not) facts. That’s why they get away with it.

So no, subjective audio reviewers relying on „clicks“ and affiliate links are not a source I will ever base a purchase on.

 

[ahofer]

Have you guys watched any of these reviewers videos on YouTube when they do them on electronics ??

Oh, we have.

Search results for query: darko

www.audiosciencereview.com

The search button is your friend.

but they can only be in this business for so long if their completely BS'ing the people

Audioquest has been selling objectively indifferent cables for decades. I'm afraid that IS the status quo.

 

[Mr. Widget]

That thread title is like sticking your hand in a wall socket around here

I'd say it is more like tossing chum in the water off the coast of Florida before taking a swim.

 

[BDWoody]

I know you guys think well they are paid and blah blah okay but they can only be in this business for so long if their completely BS'ing the people.

Many are BSing themselves. Those that aren't are just dishonest.

Do you believe Televangelists must be onto something since so many buy in? Some have been around for a long time.

Here are a bunch of testimonials in case you have doubts.

 

[theREALdotnet]

Many are BSing themselves. Those that aren't are just dishonest.

Do you believe Televangelists must be onto something since so many buy in? Some have been around for a long time.

View attachment 286592

I wonder what happens when you soak 72V biased interconnects in Miracle Spring Water? Something in the back of my head says, “don’t cross the streams!”…

 

[Gorgonzola]

Name one that is "tuned".

Anybody?

Sure: Pass Labs, D'agostino, virtually all tube amplifiers, etc. These rely on various degrees of measurable distortion to achieve "tuning". Incidentally, most have pretty flat frequency responses so this is no generally the tuning mechanism though some tube amps' response can be modified by speaker impedance.

I doubt our OP is considering a Pass. My own advice would be to look for an ultra-low distortion amp within a reasonable price range; there are plenty of class D options based on Hypex or Purifi modules. There is the odd A/B amp such as the Topping LA90 that fit that bill too.

 

[Gorgonzola]

Many are BSing themselves. Those that aren't are just dishonest.

Do you believe Televangelists must be onto something since so many buy in? Some have been around for a long time.

View attachment 286592

Here are a bunch of testimonials in case you have doubts.

Not to mention politicians; some in particular.

 

[ahofer]

So I should have asked this before so if according to most of you guys say all amps sound the same then why are people spending 6k-12k on amps when their are equally just as powerful for a lot less.

For example Rotel RA-1572 MKII for about $2200 and the Macintosh MA5300 $6000 and I could have found even more extreme examples in difference in price and staying really close to power output. There are tons of examples of this why are some paying a lot more ? Is it just a case of ignorance or looks/big name ?

This gives me an opportunity to link yet another thread.

How can bogus claims and inferior audio thrive in a competitive market?

I keep running into the same addlepated thought, here and in other forums. It goes something like this: Market success is the clearest indication of value. Expensive cables must sound better, or people wouldn't pay for them; exotic amplifiers must be better or they wouldn't survive. Even...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[JeremyFife]

I disagree 99% cause I can't be 100% sure when it comes to these things. I'm not even going to name them but there are some people who do reviews of these devices all the time that say otherwise for years. Are you telling me all of them are lying all the time ? I'm not buying it.

'lying' is a loaded term... let's try to simplify and clarify;

Consider Digital streamers, or CD transports - both devices simply read data (it's not audio at this stage) from a source and pass it on to a different device that will process it. Good examples are "bit perfect" which means that the data they read is identical to the data they pass on - there is no change. These devices cannot have a sound because they don't make any change.
Reviewers insist that there are audible differences, and routinely advise paying thousands (£$€) for "musical" examples. This is clearly nonsense.
Now, anyone who disagrees is entitled to their opinion (it's a free country). There is a simple way for these folks to prove that their opinion is correct - that's a properly (scientific) run blind test. No such test has ever shown a meaningful difference - the case for an audible difference remains unproven and unlikely.

Think about this, really think about it. There cannot be an audible difference (just saying 'I can hear one' isn't remotely good enough). Genuinely, stop your inner voice for a moment and let this sink in - that's what I had to do.

That's a hard pill to swallow. Many people just don't want to accept the evidence so they choose not to - cognitive dissonance / denial / human. They're not necessarily lying but they are categorically not being truthful.

Amplifiers are a bit more complicated, Speakers are a whole different matter... but the principle applies.

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