How concerned should I be on how a amp could affect overall sound signature ?

[Seany]

So I should have asked this before so if according to most of you guys say all amps sound the same then why are people spending 6k-12k on amps when their are equally just as powerful for a lot less.

For example Rotel RA-1572 MKII for about $2200 and the Macintosh MA5300 $6000 and I could have found even more extreme examples in difference in price and staying really close to power output. There are tons of examples of this why are some paying a lot more ? Is it just a case of ignorance or looks/big name ?

 

[TonyJZX]

well ironically the proprieter of this site used two sets of MLAS monoblocks for his testing setup and so... could you get away with something less expensive?

in this example i would probably say that many people will have issues on a DBX of the MA5200 vs. the Rotel.

BUT theres more examples... like let us also throw in the benchmark ahb2 and see how that ends up...

also there's a lot of fashion involved here with mcintosh

 

[CDMC]

Ok gents here it is in a nutshell, I like my how my speakers sound like but it doesn't go loud enough. Anything past 74-76db'ish it starts distorting and before someone asks "well how do you know your at 74-76db before it starts distorting" well because I measured it a little while back so lets not go there. What I want is to be able to play at 82-84db approx cleanly and more filling sound. I also want more bass but I'm not a bass head so nothing extreme, I just don't want more bass then what was intended in the music.



Option 1:



Should I keep my Onkyo TX-NR6100 and get a really nice pair of floor standers in the 4000k'ish range something that has multiple 6.5 woofers or maybe something that has 8" woofers so then I wouldn't need to buy a pair of subwoofers ? But then the my AVR would probably be struggling with more powerful floor standers as some I'm mentioned are 4ohms. For example the R700 I heard have lots of bass and often don't need subs with it. I was looking at the MartinLogan Motion XT F100 also the Wharfedale LINTON Heritage, Buchardt S400 MKII, KEF R11. Also don't mention JBL the 580 or 590's their ugly. Maybe I could get a few suggestions from you guys for quality floor standers in the 4000k'isk. They have floor standers versions of my Elacs bookshelves but in the specs for bass it's barely any diff then the bookshelves plus their are drivers but their all 5 1/4. I've not done any research for the Logan's or the KEF11 to see if they are too bright cause I am sensitive to bright speakers. Yes I used the word "bright" can we please not go into the "we prefer not to use those terms as they don't mean anything" I know the Linton's, Buchardt S400 MKII would be right up my ally but want to shop around before picking.



This above option would be the easiest option for me get up and running. The below option more complicated to set up but I probably be able to keep my AVR and keep speakers and would cost less but more risky though with subwoofers to get right.



Option number 2:


Keep my AVR and my Elacs DBR62's and add a pair of subwoofers and hope I can integrate it properly into my system. They also have to go where I put the two X's in the picture I don't want them anywhere else. I know I've often placement is really important for the subwoofers, well I guess my question is how do I know if the place I need to put them at will be a good spot to them their ? Cause if it ain't a good spot for some reason then I don't have a choice I'd rather then get the floor stands cause it's more fool proof ?? I put two red x's as to where the sub have to go, do you think it's a good fit there ?

Do you realize that you are like the person who asks for a free meal and then starts to say, no I only eat gluten free vegan food, prepared on gas stoves, and presented on fine China? You want information and help, but only on the terms that you deem fit and only if it requires no work on your part. If you really want to get some improvements to your system and true help with it, you need to put in some time and work on your end, so the shortcomings can be identified and actual good recommendations provided. Outside of that, you can save a lot of time by just saying, I don't like my stereo, I have $5,000, what should I buy and then everyone can just name their favorite brands and models.

 

[Petevid]

Maybe it’s a similar to people spending tens of thousands on a Rolex when a £20 Casio will tell the time just as well. Not a full proof analogy but goes some of the way there.

 

[Seany]

Do you realize that you are like the person who asks for a free meal and then starts to say, no I only eat gluten free vegan food, prepared on gas stoves, and presented on fine China? You want information and help, but only on the terms that you deem fit and only if it requires no work on your part. If you really want to get some improvements to your system and true help with it, you need to put in some time and work on your end, so the shortcomings can be identified and actual good recommendations provided. Outside of that, you can save a lot of time by just saying, I don't like my stereo, I have $5,000, what should I buy and then everyone can just name their favorite brands and models.

You do have a good point at the end of your paragraph but you can't fault me for not wanting to learn how to do measurements and all that stuff, it's just too much. I'm just trying to improve what I have and seeing if I can keep some of it instead of replacing all of it.

 

[SKBubba]

You do have a good point at the end of your paragraph but you can't fault me for not wanting to learn how to do measurements and all that stuff, it's just too much. I'm just trying to improve what I have and seeing if I can keep some of it instead of replacing all of it.

Have you run the automatic room correction already built in to your amp?

 

[Seany]

Have you run the automatic room correction already built in to your amp?

Yeah I did but I don't think I can tell a difference, plus it's not the most effective software version of it like direc live and or the Denon one X32 something like that.

 

[Seany]

I've made up my mind and no more going and forth and annoying people on forums . I'm going to buy some nice floor standers with multiple 6.5" or 8' woofers and go from there. I also want to get a nice new two channel amp with tone controls knobs on the front. Then thirdly we'll see about the subwoofers. I'm thinking if I get high quality floor standers I should have enough bass.

 

[Doodski]

I've made up my mind and no more going and forth and annoying people on forums . I'm going to buy some nice floor standers with multiple 6.5" or 8' woofers and go from there. I also want to get a nice new two channel amp with tone controls knobs on the front. Then thirdly we'll see about the subwoofers. I'm thinking if I get high quality floor standers I should have enough bass.

If you get the right floor standers you will be rattling the china and the pictures frames on the walls. Dual 8" should do well for that or a single 12".

 

[ahofer]

In a perfect world the amps would double down with each halving of the load impedance.... but we live in an imperfect world.

My understanding is that a lot of companies lowball the 8 ohm measurement to show 'the doubling', discussed ad nauseam elsewhere in this forum.

 

[Doodski]

My understanding is that a lot of companies lowball the 8 ohm measurement to show 'the doubling', discussed ad nauseam elsewhere in this forum.

Not all but some might/do.

 

[ahofer]

I've made up my mind and no more going and forth and annoying people on forums . I'm going to buy some nice floor standers with multiple 6.5" or 8' woofers and go from there. I also want to get a nice new two channel amp with tone controls knobs on the front. Then thirdly we'll see about the subwoofers. I'm thinking if I get high quality floor standers I should have enough bass.

We're here, nobody forced anyone to answer, I wouldn't worry about it.

Btw, when I've offered a subjective impression, I've simply labeled it as such and I don't get much grief for it. In my time here I have, however, learned more about reading measurements, and how to use REW, and it's fun to correlate (or not) those subjective impressions with the measurements...or the room, which is often an issue.

The big no-no at ASR, AFAICT, is promoting or condemning loudspeakers based solely on such a subjective impression. The answer is always "glad you like 'em, but the measurements indicate a problem" (see about 50 B&W threads and more than a few on my own Harbeth speakers).

Many people ask about speakers. They should, as the rest of the chain is basically a solved problem (save the amp power compatibility discussed above). I'd say:

1) start with speakers with good spinorama measurements, to narrow down the field and be sure that EQ can be used later as necessary
2) listen to the ones that offer you the low end you need. I have Revel F228be in one system, and there's more than enough low end there for nearly all music, and they can fill a large room and sound good far field.

 

[Verig]

I've made up my mind and no more going and forth and annoying people on forums . I'm going to buy some nice floor standers with multiple 6.5" or 8' woofers and go from there. I also want to get a nice new two channel amp with tone controls knobs on the front. Then thirdly we'll see about the subwoofers. I'm thinking if I get high quality floor standers I should have enough bass.

Your questions were so all over the place that you just need some experience with gear AND your room and ears.
For example you may come to notice that having floor standers has nothing to do with needing a sub or not... and that having a sub is not only about "enough bass"... and that big floorstanders may come with their own problems.

Not trying to be mean. This is an interesting hobby and a great journey in many, sometimes frustrating, ways. Have fun!

 

[dlaloum]

If you get the right floor standers you will be rattling the china and the pictures frames on the walls. Dual 8" should do well for that or a single 12".

I recall the old Boston Acoustics A400's from the mid 1980's - twin 8" - and they could give you a solid chest thump when the kick drum kicked in.... They were also marvelously good at reproducing low frequency timbre, etc....

It was a sealed (acoustic suspension) design, and perhaps somewhat SPL limited in the low frequencies - but I never noticed it...(I'm not a huge bass fan) - they went down low, with very clean distortion free sound...

Yes, twin 8" can do it with ease in a well designed speaker - and if you want low distortion at the low frequencies, sealed designs will as a general rule of thumb, do better. The level drops off more gradually as the frequency gets lower, distortion tends to stay lower throughout the range, ported designs use the port to maintain a more "flat" frequency response to a lower frequency, but thereafter, response tends to drop off a cliff.... which for classical music often leads to the sealed designs providing better (more extended) low frequency response, albeit at lower levels (hence more effective texture/timbre for bass instruments.

 

[Doodski]

I recall the old Boston Acoustics A400's from the mid 1980's - twin 8" - and they could give you a solid chest thump when the kick drum kicked in.... They were also marvelously good at reproducing low frequency timbre, etc....

It was a sealed (acoustic suspension) design, and perhaps somewhat SPL limited in the low frequencies - but I never noticed it...(I'm not a huge bass fan) - they went down low, with very clean distortion free sound...

Yes, twin 8" can do it with ease in a well designed speaker - and if you want low distortion at the low frequencies, sealed designs will as a general rule of thumb, do better. The level drops off more gradually as the frequency gets lower, distortion tends to stay lower throughout the range, ported designs use the port to maintain a more "flat" frequency response to a lower frequency, but thereafter, response tends to drop off a cliff.... which for classical music often leads to the sealed designs providing better (more extended) low frequency response, albeit at lower levels (hence more effective texture/timbre for bass instruments.

I had sealed cabinets with the MB Quarts that I owned. They where tight tight tight.. LoL. I mean tighT! The bass was very clear and clean. They did gobble up the power too.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

I had sealed cabinets with the MB Quarts that I owned. They where tight tight tight.. LoL. I mean tighT! The bass was very clear and clean. They did gobble up the power too.

I get it. The bass was clear. I was wondering though, if you found it tight?

 

[Phorize]

Are you telling me you've never watched or read a review about a integrated amplifier and the reviewer mentions that it has certain colored characteristics when it comes sound ? So according to you all integrate amplifiers sound exactly the same ? come on.

There’s no shortage of hifi reviewers who say that sort of thing, but enough is known about how amplification works to refute the claim that one can hear an amplifier except where power, noise or distortion are at play.

 

[Seany]

There’s no shortage of hifi reviewers who say that sort of thing, but enough is known about how amplification works to refute the claim that one can hear an amplifier except where power, noise or distortion are at play.

Well you're kind of late to the game now, but I was talking about integrated amplifiers not regular power amps and whatnot.

 

[dlaloum]

Well you're kind of late to the game now, but I was talking about integrated amplifiers not regular power amps and whatnot.

Same difference - unless the integrated is specifically designed to sound different.... (in which case one has to ask, is it actually high fidelity... but thats a whole different ball of wax).

An integrated, is a pre-amp and a power amp in one box - if properly designed, neither one of them will have its own "sound" - with seperates there can be matching issues with regards to load impedance (same as for speakers and power amps really) - these issues can have an impact on frequency response, etc... - so a mismatched pre and power can indeed end up with its own "sound" - properly matched that is not the case.

Integrated's are by design "properly matched" - so unless they were designed intentionally to alter the signal (wouldn't that be distortion, by definition!?) - they would not have a "sound".

Many preamps have intentional adjustment features - graphic equalisers, tone controls, loudness settings, or in the current generation Room EQ DSP's - these intentionally alter the sound in various ways.... but all preamps or integrated's that I know of, have a setting for direct straight through pure reproduction (ie disable all alterations and pass the signal through transparently) in which case they don't have their own sound.... (or should not have their own sound!).

There have been quite a few blind tests over the years, and when properly run, very few of the people who sat the tests have been able to differentiate between components... (includes preamps, integrateds and power amps, also CD players and other digital sources - does not so much apply to speakers and TT cartridges.... those are items where the flaws are legion.... )

 

[ahofer]

Well you're kind of late to the game now, but I was talking about integrated amplifiers not regular power amps and whatnot.

Makes no difference. Electronics with linear specs and operating within power specification are vanishingly transparent. Check out this classic blind test:


1987, Stereo Review test - go to page 80 of the pdf

much more here

Catalogue of blind tests

I thought this thread on Head-Fi was a valiant effort to put together blind tests that have been performed over the years. Given that there have been many more (I'm thinking Archimago's tests, among others), it would be fun to open source a complete list...

www.audiosciencereview.com