How concerned should I be on how a amp could affect overall sound signature ?

[MaxwellsEq]

'lying' is a loaded term... let's try to simplify and clarify;

Consider Digital streamers, or CD transports - both devices simply read data (it's not audio at this stage) from a source and pass it on to a different device that will process it. Good examples are "bit perfect" which means that the data they read is identical to the data they pass on - there is no change. These devices cannot have a sound because they don't make any change.
Reviewers insist that there are audible differences, and routinely advise paying thousands (£$€) for "musical" examples. This is clearly nonsense.
Now, anyone who disagrees is entitled to their opinion (it's a free country). There is a simple way for these folks to prove that their opinion is correct - that's a properly (scientific) run blind test. No such test has ever shown a meaningful difference - the case for an audible difference remains unproven and unlikely.

Think about this, really think about it. There cannot be an audible difference (just saying 'I can hear one' isn't remotely good enough). Genuinely, stop your inner voice for a moment and let this sink in - that's what I had to do.

That's a hard pill to swallow. Many people just don't want to accept the evidence so they choose not to - cognitive dissonance / denial / human. They're not necessarily lying but they are categorically not being truthful.

Amplifiers are a bit more complicated, Speakers are a whole different matter... but the principle applies.

Welcome to ASR

Even worse are audio-grade LAN routers/switches/hubs! Or people claiming you need a Linear Power Supply for computers, NASes, routers etc.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

Andrew Robinson
The British audiophile
Darko Audio

Have you guys watched any of these reviewers videos on YouTube when they do them on electronics ?? If you haven't then you really shouldn't be saying too much.

I would say out of the three of them Andrew Robinson is probably the one that makes a living off of this kind of stuff. But that doesn't make this guy a liar.

I know you guys think well they are paid and blah blah okay but they can only be in this business for so long if their completely BS'ing the people. Once again they can't be all lying about all this stuff all the time there's just no way, they couldn't get away with it in a long term.

These guys are exactly what you think they are not.

Andrew Robinson is for example capable of hearing "The Yamaha Sound" whatever that is. On amps that measure objectively completely flat. It's laughable to be honest.

My advice is to stop defending these channels. Stop watching them for some weeks and spend the time you used to spend to make yourself familiar with some of the data in the reviews and how that works. Ask questions here as you go.
Then re-visit some of the older videos from before and see if you haven't changed your mind somewhat.

 

[Verig]

Oh?

If "Tube Sound" Is a Myth, Why Tubes?

Okay, is the variable resistor connected to a series resistor or is that a variable output 20 k ohm pot? I can't tell from the picture. If it is a variable output pot it should be fine. Max output impedance would be 5 k ohm at -6 db. And you'll be using it at a lower setting with an even...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Yes. Of course the degree of difference depends on the tube amp design. Modern high power versions are quite close to SS but simple triodes or 300B candy are very different. Luckily those things measure very differently and control speaker in interesting ways so talking about myths is a bit odd. I do realize that tubes can be heavily glamorized in discussions to the point of absurdity. There was a thread about 300B with very nice history and technical explanation here.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

I wonder what happens when you soak 72V biased interconnects in Miracle Spring Water? Something in the back of my head says, “don’t cross the streams!”…

You might get enlightened

 

[Vacceo]

Some of these people have been working in the audio field all their lives in different areas. Some I'm sure are dubious but can't be all of them. I understand what you're telling me but it is what it is. I know most of the difference really comes to what speakers are used so no need to convince me there.

Do they have a firm point of reference? Do they mesure? Do they know psychoacoustics? How about electronic engineering?

I will not argue they can offer an interesting take on usability, but for the rest, they are no better than you or me.

Because my knowledge of physics and electronics is rudimentary to none, I'd defer to someone more knowledgeable than me. That someone is Amir, not Darko.

 

[MattHooper]

Some of these people have been working in the audio field all their lives in different areas. Some I'm sure are dubious but can't be all of them. I understand what you're telling me but it is what it is. I know most of the difference really comes to what speakers are used so no need to convince me there.

It doesn't matter how long anyone has been working in any field. Nobody can be free of bias effects. I've worked in pro sound since the 80's and I've had some sighted impressions essentially vanish once I re-tested them in blind testing. (I've also had some sighted impressions vindicated the same way).

There's a reason why controls for bias are essential in science: scientists recognize that no amount of experience or authority renders someone impervious to bias effects. It's built in.

So plenty of subjective reviewers are not "lying," they are simply sometimes mistaken. Just, being human.

 

[Gringoaudio1]

Hey Seany,
I have an older Marantz receiver. It was fairly highly regarded flagship in its day. The best thing I ever did for audio quality in my system was add a subwoofer and especially add an external SimAudio power amp.
Even my $5000 Sonus Faber towers don’t create sub bass. You NEED a sub. And not just for movies. And the receiver has a sound that also can be described as thin compared to the high current external power amp running the two front speakers. The impedance curve of the speakers could possibly be difficult and the external amp simply has more bass… in combination with my speakers. Amps don’t all sound the same. And especially paired with a variety of speakers with different impedance curves. Electrical engineering and 50 years of experience. The ‘ohms’ rating of a speaker is a nominal number. It changes across the frequency spectrum. It’s not all that important to think about unless it goes too low or too high. But it’s never simply just 4 ohms or 8 ohms etc.


I like what bookshelf speakers do. They disappear better usually in my experience. The sound appears to come not just from the box. Try a sub first. The impression of volume and musical power often comes from the bass impact. You might just be happy with only a sub.

 

[MattHooper]

Some of the biggest BS there is. And the fact that they are doing it for a „long“ time makes it even worse as they still haven’t even understood some of the electrical engineering fundamentals by now (but mainly choose to ignore physics as it probably would hurt sales ).

They prey on that fact, that people can be talked into what they are supposed to hear (human bias) and not on (mostly not) facts. That’s why they get away with it.

So no, subjective audio reviewers relying on „clicks“ and affiliate links are not a source I will ever base a purchase on.

It's one thing to point out some of those reviewers aren't providing detailed measurements or haven't done proper blind controlled listening tests etc.

It's another to make the claim their reviews are B.S. That actually puts the onus back on you, if that's what you want to say. You'd have to give a significant number of instances, say from Darko or Robinson, demonstrating that the speakers they reviewed do not in fact sound anything like they have described, in their room. I don't see how that burden has been met. (And I find both pretty perceptive in their speaker reviews, with brands I'm familiar with). I can certainly understand why you personally
would avoid those reviewers, but splattering them with the "BS" label isn't necessarily fair. I find they both provide plenty of good info on their sites, in terms of manufacturer claims, what the product is like in person (fit/finish/how easy to install to sound good), what the products are like to operate, and then descriptions of the sound character.

 

[ahofer]

demonstrating that the speakers they reviewed do not in fact sound anything like they have described, in their room.

?? Subjective impressions are unfalsifiable and can’t be replicated. That’s one of the reasons they aren’t very useful.

 

[IAtaman]

It's one thing to point out some of those reviewers aren't providing detailed measurements or haven't done proper blind controlled listening tests etc.

It's another to make the claim their reviews are B.S. That actually puts the onus back on you, if that's what you want to say. You'd have to give a significant number of instances, say from Darko or Robinson, demonstrating that the speakers they reviewed do not in fact sound anything like they have described, in their room. I don't see how that burden has been met. (And I find both pretty perceptive in their speaker reviews, with brands I'm familiar with). I can certainly understand why you personally
would avoid those reviewers, but splattering them with the "BS" label isn't necessarily fair. I find they both provide plenty of good info on their sites, in terms of manufacturer claims, what the product is like in person (fit/finish/how easy to install to sound good), what the products are like to operate, and then descriptions of the sound character.

I don't know whether one should call them BS or not but I do think their usefulness at times comes with high risk. I do liken them to self proclaimed exercise and sports nutrition experts you can find by hundreds on YT. They have some experience with the things they are talking about, but they don't really understand it; they say things that are probably right every once in a while yet they might be causing as much "damage" as they are doing good; and its probably best for everyone if they just didn't.

 

[JeremyFife]

It's one thing to point out some of those reviewers aren't providing detailed measurements or haven't done proper blind controlled listening tests etc.

It's another to make the claim their reviews are B.S. That actually puts the onus back on you, if that's what you want to say. You'd have to give a significant number of instances, say from Darko or Robinson, demonstrating that the speakers they reviewed do not in fact sound anything like they have described, in their room. I don't see how that burden has been met. (And I find both pretty perceptive in their speaker reviews, with brands I'm familiar with). I can certainly understand why you personally
would avoid those reviewers, but splattering them with the "BS" label isn't necessarily fair. I find they both provide plenty of good info on their sites, in terms of manufacturer claims, what the product is like in person (fit/finish/how easy to install to sound good), what the products are like to operate, and then descriptions of the sound character.

I get what you're saying - when speakers are being reviewed. I don't like flinging BS about either (...) Electronics are a bit different though.
If a reviewer makes unsubstantiated claims about the sound of a Streamer/ Transport/ DAC then I would be wary of anything they had to say about anything else really. I'd certainly want more objective information.
Useful for features, info and usability , and can be entertaining - not enough to make a purchase decision on.

 

[MattHooper]

?? Subjective impressions are unfalsifiable and can’t be replicated. That’s one of the reasons they aren’t very useful.

1. If that were the case, then making a positive claim they are false ("B.S.") is also out of bounds.

However...

2. Subjective impressions can be useful. We verify subjective impressions all the time. For sight: If I say X car is darker color than Y car, you can check to see if that is the case with your own senses by looking. If I say "X pasta sauce is spicier than Y pasta sauce" you can verify that as well, by trying the sauces. If I say that "X speaker's bass sounds deeper and more powerful than Y" you can listen and verify that as well. It's not as rigorous as measurements or blind testing, but subjective reports are certainly still useful. IF you care to have use for them. For instance, Herb Reichert described the general character differences between two speaker brands that I have owned. He was bang on to exactly the difference I hear (and care about) between those speakers. If I had some idea of what I was looking for in a speaker, I might *possibly* be experienced enough to look at the measurements and say "Ok, I know exactly how each of those speakers will sound." But...I might not. Hence, Herb's report on the sonic consequences of those speaker designs would be quite useful. This happens a lot. It won't happen for people who don't think any such reports are to be trusted, though, because...well...someone so inclined won't bother using such reports.

 

[Seany]

Watch the part in these videos where their comparing one unit to another,,, and then come back and tell me it's all lies. It you don't watch then keep quiet cause most of you haven't watched nor will watch and you won't change your ways. You guys think it's all lies but you expect me to believe a bunch random people on this web site. Once again for the record I don't everything they are saying but do you expect me to believe everything some of you guys say though ? Some of you do have sense and some other don't just like people who review videos.

 

[Seany]

It doesn't matter how long anyone has been working in any field. Nobody can be free of bias effects. I've worked in pro sound since the 80's and I've had some sighted impressions essentially vanish once I re-tested them in blind testing. (I've also had some sighted impressions vindicated the same way).

There's a reason why controls for bias are essential in science: scientists recognize that no amount of experience or authority renders someone impervious to bias effects. It's built in.

So plenty of subjective reviewers are not "lying," they are simply sometimes mistaken. Just, being human.

You seem like someone who can see both sides of a debate and have good answers to support both sides, while others seem completely blinded that all these reviews are all BS. I also believe I'm in the middle but people here think I'm totally on one side. The hate that some people display towards these reviewers I think is ridiculous they can't be all 100% wrong at the time.

 

[Seany]

Hey Seany,
I have an older Marantz receiver. It was fairly highly regarded flagship in its day. The best thing I ever did for audio quality in my system was add a subwoofer and especially add an external SimAudio power amp.
Even my $5000 Sonus Faber towers don’t create sub bass. You NEED a sub. And not just for movies. And the receiver has a sound that also can be described as thin compared to the high current external power amp running the two front speakers. The impedance curve of the speakers could possibly be difficult and the external amp simply has more bass… in combination with my speakers. Amps don’t all sound the same. And especially paired with a variety of speakers with different impedance curves. Electrical engineering and 50 years of experience. The ‘ohms’ rating of a speaker is a nominal number. It changes across the frequency spectrum. It’s not all that important to think about unless it goes too low or too high. But it’s never simply just 4 ohms or 8 ohms etc.


I like what bookshelf speakers do. They disappear better usually in my experience. The sound appears to come not just from the box. Try a sub first. The impression of volume and musical power often comes from the bass impact. You might just be happy with only a sub.

Thanks,

"And the receiver has a sound that also can be described as thin compared to the high current external power amp running the two front speakers."

It will be interesting to see when I get a new amp to see *if* my sound will affected also.

 

[BDWoody]

You guys think it's all lies but you expect me to believe a bunch random people on this web site.

Ok, you've convinced me to close this thread. I think you've gleaned what you could, but this is going to go downhill from here.

The more you actually understand the technical side, the more nonsense you can get beyond. Evidence and claims are very different things.