How concerned should I be on how a amp could affect overall sound signature ?

[Seany]

So as of now I have Elacs DBR-62's and the Onkyo AVR-6100, I've had this first setup since last fall. Now that I'm sure I won't be going 5.1 and will be sticking to a 2.0 channel setup I'd like to get a nice amp for the long haul and eventfully like to get some new speakers. So my concern is I've been watching/reading lots about the following amps in my list. Often users will say for example "this amp is a little bright in the top end analytical etc...) they basically talk about the amps sound signature like they would speakers when testing. I have to admit after reading/watching comments/reviews about amps some say to use caution with amp X to pair with certain speaker cause if the amp is extended and bright and you pair that with bright sounding speakers well that turns into a double dose brightness nor do I want a double of dose of a laid back warm amp coupled with a warm speakers cause it would probably be to much also.

In the beginning when I started this hobby I read often that you get the speakers that has the sound you want and to not worry about the electronics. So does this still hold true ? I was thinking maybe I should get a amp that is neutral sounding so that it has the best chance to sound good with most speakers, would this assessment be my best bet for now ? or should I completely ignore what users say about how a amp sounds like and just focus if the amp has the features I need and pick that one ?

For a while I've been looking at the following amps.

Denon PMA-1700NE (classic, warmer sound?)
Rotel A14 MKII (neutral sounding ?)
Rotel RA-1572 MKII (little over budget maybe wait for sale) (neutral sounding ?)
Audiolab 7000A (no tone controls, but then again I never needed to use tone controls so far)
Hegel H120 (too pricey)


The following is speculations on my part but am I right ? I'm thinking a Rotel amp would pair up well with my Elacs and Wharfedale LINTON Heritage speakers I'm looking at. I'm also looking at the R700 which would probably be better off with the Denon PMA-1700NE amp due to the R700 being more of a neutral speaker. I also like the ELAC Uni-Fi Reference UFR52 towers but these would be a toss up to which amp it would be best paired with.

 

[Multicore]

In the beginning when I started this hobby I read often that you get the speakers that has the sound you want and to not worry about the electronics. So does this still hold true ?

Mostly.

I was thinking maybe I should get a amp that is neutral sounding so that it has the best chance to sound good with most speakers, would this assessment be my best bet for now ?

It's what I would do.

I want an amp to be linear, flat frequency response, low noise and powerful enough for the application. I don't want an amp to introduce its character to the musical experience. Tone controls are great but an amp that does tone shaping that I cannot control is going to be a problem.

So I have a @Buckeye Amps Hypex power amp and a MiniDSP Flex preamp which has 4 tone control presets, I can precisely control each preset by hooking it to a computer and in use I just choose one of the presets.

Yamaha is often recommended by ASR commenters as a good value and good performing integrated amp in the classic style.

 

[DVDdoug]

Often users will say for example "this amp is a little bright in the top end analytical etc...) they basically talk about the amps sound signature like they would speakers when testing.

99% nonsense. Most of the "audiophile" community is nuts! Most electronics have flat frequency response and distortion below audibility unless an amplifier is overdriven into clipping (distortion). Sometimes you'll get audible noise from an amplifier (background hiss, hum, or whine).

And all of this can be described using clear language without any of that mysterious audiophile terminology. "Bright" usually means boosted highs but "warm" actually has a couple of meanings, and words like "analytical" or "musical" are useless.

See Audiophoolery.

 

[RayDunzl]

Opinion:

For competent amplifiers the only real difference should be their power limits.

 

[Seany]

99% nonsense. Most of the "audiophile" community is nuts! Most electronics have flat frequency response and distortion below audibility unless an amplifier is overdriven into clipping (distortion). Sometimes you'll get audible noise from an amplifier (background hiss, hum, or whine).

And all of this can be described using clear language without any of that mysterious audiophile terminology. "Bright" usually means boosted highs but "warm" actually has a couple of meanings, and words like "analytical" or "musical" are useless.

See Audiophoolery.

Those are just words that I chose to use I don't have exact quotes so let's not get to hung up on any one word I'm sure you know what I meant. Basically users would say something like this amp colors the sound and isn't totally neutral or flat that's all I'm trying to say. Also I'm not talking about distortion hum or hiss, I don't know why you would even bring that up.

I would think amplifiers should be neutral and flat but is it really that much out of the realm of possibility that some get tuned towards a certain characteristics of sound and be so neutral or flat.

 

[chris256]

Sometimes you'll get audible noise from an amplifier (background hiss, hum, or whine).

This is indeed an important point. Unfortunately, there are no useful measurements covering this point.

@amirm usually measures SINAD @5W. In reality, 5W output is pretty loud (much more than room volume). Usual volume uses about one tenth of power. Or even less (depending on the efficiency of the speaker). Therefore, I'm missing SINAD at low power output.

Much better would be to provide an output voltage without adding any signal at all (without muting the input). Ideally the output now is exactly 0.0000000000 V. This measurement would show a really important behavior of a device - a use case, that comes into play most often in daily use ((very) low volumes).

 

[RayDunzl]

I would think amplifiers should be neutral and flat but is it really that much out of the realm of possibility that some get tuned towards a certain characteristics of sound and be so neutral or flat

Name one that is "tuned".

Anybody?

 

[RayDunzl]

Much better would be to provide an output voltage without adding any signal at all (without muting the input). Ideally the output now is exactly 0.0000000000 V.

BonziBuddy2023 says:

"The lowest level of amplifier noise at room temperature is determined by the fundamental limits set by quantum mechanics. This noise is known as thermal noise or Johnson-Nyquist noise.

Thermal noise arises due to the random motion of charge carriers (electrons) within a resistor. The noise power spectral density (N) of thermal noise is given by the formula:

N = 4kTRB

where:

• k is Boltzmann's constant (1.38 x 10^(-23) J/K)
• T is the temperature in Kelvin
• R is the resistance in ohms
• B is the bandwidth in hertz

At room temperature (approximately 298 Kelvin), the noise power spectral density is typically around -174 dBm/Hz. This value represents the noise power per unit bandwidth, referenced to 1 milliwatt (-174 dBm) over a 1 Hz bandwidth."

---

You might have 2 or 3 too many zeroes in your request, maybe.

 

[Seany]

Name one that is "tuned".

Anybody?

Are you telling me you've never watched or read a review about a integrated amplifier and the reviewer mentions that it has certain colored characteristics when it comes sound ? So according to you all integrate amplifiers sound exactly the same ? come on.

 

[Beave]

Are you telling me you've never watched or read a review about a integrated amplifier and the reviewer mentions that it has certain colored characteristics when it comes sound ? come on.

Reveiewers mention colored characteristics all the time. Yes, we know that.

Is it the result of the amp itself coloring the sound or is it the result of the reviewer doing sighted, non-level-matched comparisons to an amp they heard days/weeks/months/years ago?

Measurements show it's usually the latter, not the former.

 

[Doodski]

Are you telling me you've never watched or read a review about a integrated amplifier and the reviewer mentions that it has certain colored characteristics when it comes sound ? So according to you all integrate amplifiers sound exactly the same ? come on.

Most of those reviewers are full of doodoo. They imagine or create a aura of sound shaping. Don't give any credibility to them.

 

[Seany]

Reveiewers mention colored characteristics all the time. Yes, we know that.

Is it the result of the amp itself coloring the sound or is it the result of the reviewer doing sighted, non-level-matched comparisons to an amp they heard days/weeks/months/years ago?

Measurements show it's usually the latter, not the former.

Well I'm sure some of them would fall in the ladder but a lot of them do A-B testing between two different units.

I'm ready to admit that the coloring of the sound characteristics are probably somewhat minimal when it comes to integrated amplifiers but it's there sometimes. But speakers will play a bigger role into the sound that one desires.

 

[Doodski]

coloring of the sound characteristics are probably somewhat minimal when it comes to integrated amplifiers

It's almost non-existent. Anything colored intentionally is not good. Use a EQ/PEQ to adjust the sound not the amp coloration.

 

[Seany]

Most of those reviewers are full of doodoo. They imagine or create a aura of sound shaping. Don't give any credibility to them.

I wouldn't lot them altogether. Well I'll buy one unit and maybe down the road I'll buy another one and do some AB testing for myself.

 

[Seany]

It's almost non-existent. Anything colored intentionally is not good. Use a EQ/PEQ to adjust the sound not the amp coloration.

I agree.

 

[Doodski]

I wouldn't lot them altogether. Well I'll buy one unit and maybe down the road I'll buy another one and do some AB testing for myself.

Sure if you have the budget that's a idea.

I have Elacs DBR-62's and the Onkyo AVR-6100

What's wrong with your Onkyo? It most likely sounds great and will have little to no noticeable difference when compared to other amps unless you buy a big power amps and then we are talking about power and low impedance drive.

 

[Buckeye Amps]

I wouldn't lot them altogether. Well I'll buy one unit and maybe down the road I'll buy another one and do some AB testing for myself.

It would need to be blind testing using proper setup criteria to have any merit.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I wouldn't lot them altogether. Well I'll buy one unit and maybe down the road I'll buy another one and do some AB testing for myself.

Well learn how to do it properly and you'll probably find you were wasting your time. Just plug them in, listen without level matching and swap back haphazardly and I bet you'll hear some sonic signatures or colorations yourself. They still are likely not real. Yet once having that real personal experience you will be very convinced and very confident in what you heard. And you'll still be wrong.

 

[Seany]

Sure if you have the budget that's a idea.

What's wrong with your Onkyo? It most likely sounds great and will have little to no noticeable difference when compared to other amps unless you buy a big power amps and then we are talking about power and low impedance drive.

I like my Onkyo, but I would like to have more. I don't know how to explain it but I'm sure some of you have multiple speakers, electronics and like to change things up just for fun right ?

 

[Doodski]

What they mean is use a AC multimeter to meter the amp(s) output at maybe 400Hz or 200Hz sine wave to the speakers to ensure the levels are the same so you don't get tricked by a louder amp. Plus you will require a AB switchbox for fast switching so you can compare them instantly and not get tricked by slow switching and the imagination.