How close can I get the sound of my vinyl setup to my digital setup

[Helicopter]

+1 for cart being weak point.

A better Ortofon stylus, or the most expensive AT ML cartridge is what I would recommend. I am quite happy with AT95ML, AT440MLb and AT OC9XML.

 

[aerochrome2]

@aerochrome2 Oh this is a very difficult one to answer simply. Analogue is another beast altogether from Class-D/H amplifiers.
The most important thing with vinyl LP playback is proper setup. Everything must be "Just so" to get your rack, platter, plinth level. Then you have cartridge alignment, skating or anti-skating to deal with, and stylus pressure, VTA for a start. Cartridges also have an inherent lifespan built in from the moment it was produced. They have suspension systems built in and suffer from age. You can get close or better a subjective opinion depending entirely on your equipment and ear combination to modern Class-D amplifier driven speakers but do you really want the same sound from your LP's compared to a well executed Class-D amplifier? What type of motor assembly is used by your deck also makes another difference. Your phono-stage and cartridge combo is vitally important as well as any external power supply that can properly maintain RPM. Record players need constant attention to keep them working well, belts dry/stretch. Oil dries out or evaporates. The list is endless. And most likely there will be someone who has something better, always. I did come across a swivelling mechanism for cartridges that use a "headshell" Literally traces the groves and swivels with virtually no resistance and could make a really inexpensive Nagaoka cartridge sound hugely better because it swivelled. But not everyone has a player with an arm that uses detachable headshells. My player is fixed so I can't use this $350 ish part that made such an audible difference to playback.

I hope this helps you towards an answer. Cartridges can reach over $10,000USD. Will that work well with the rest of your deck? Yes if you have that sort of money to spend on a deck itself. The pursuit is endless and hugely expensive. Most of us Analogue die-hards draw a line in the sand and think this is good enough at some point.

I also hope that you remember to enjoy listening to music! It's easy to get trapped into a vicious circle of pursuit. Newer cartridges are extremely good now. MM vs MC is a line that is becoming increasingly blurred.

Cheers, and happy hunting. It's a great and rewarding hobby.

Thanks so much. I can see myself falling down the rabbit hole.

 

[Helicopter]

+1 for cart being weak point.

A better Ortofon stylus, or the most expensive AT ML cartridge is what I would recommend. I am quite happy with AT95ML, AT440MLb and AT OC9XML.

I meant to say most expensive for your budget.

 

[aerochrome2]

I meant to say most expensive for your budget.

Makes sense!

 

[ArtDJ]

Thanks. That makes a lot of sense. On the platter mat, would you recommend something simple like a felt slipmat to go thinner, or something else?

It looks like your turntable uses a special mat with slits cut into it which are designed to be lined up with light prisms in the platter. I'm just going by what I see online for your model or ones similar to it, but if that's the case then you should make sure the mat is correctly aligned with those prisms, and I assume you should not use any other mats.

 

[aerochrome2]

It looks like your turntable uses a special mat with slits cut into it which are designed to be lined up with light prisms in the platter. I'm just going by what I see online for your model or ones similar to it, but if that's the case then you should make sure the mat is correctly aligned with those prisms, and I assume you should not use any other mats.

That's right. I think the downside to using another mat is that the turntable would always think I have a 12 inch on there, and there is a risk of hitting start and having the needle drop right onto the platter.

 

[Chrispy]

That's right. I think the downside to using another mat is that the turntable would always think I have a 12 inch on there, and there is a risk of hitting start and having the needle drop right onto the platter.

Never played with an automatic tt that automatic! Didn't realize yours was an automatic....is that something you fancy? Way back when I went totally manual (after enjoying a Dual changer for my first good player), simplicity with a tt is better than complicated IMO. Still have same manual tt 35+ years later, and has needed minimal maintenance. Just a thought (plus all the best tts will be manual).

 

[aerochrome2]

Never played with an automatic tt that automatic! Didn't realize yours was an automatic....is that something you fancy? Way back when I went totally manual (after enjoying a Dual changer for my first good player), simplicity with a tt is better than complicated IMO. Still have same manual tt 35+ years later, and has needed minimal maintenance. Just a thought (plus all the best tts will be manual).

Not something I necessarily fancy, but my wife's grandfather offered it to me when he was moving (he hadn't used it in fifteen years at that point). I had just finished setting up my digital system, so the timing worked and I spent the money to get it repaired. I'll probably keep it for sentimental reasons.

 

[Chrispy]

Not something I necessity fancy, but my wife's grandfather offered it to me when he was moving (he hadn't used it in fifteen years at that point). I had just finished setting up my digital system, so the timing worked and I spent the money to get it repaired. I'll probably keep it for sentimental reasons.

I was thinking more if you get dragged down the old

 

[levimax]

Not something I necessity fancy, but my wife's grandfather offered it to me when he was moving (he hadn't used it in fifteen years at that point). I had just finished setting up my digital system, so the timing worked and I spent the money to get it repaired. I'll probably keep it for sentimental reasons.

I think "automatic return" is the minimum level of automation a TT needs... falling asleep or walking away and letting the tone arm and needle bounce back and forth on the inner part of the record for hours or more is not good. I put the "fully manual" TT craze in the same category as the "no tone control craze" .... a good excuse for the manufacturers to save money and at the same time "say it is better" when it's not.

 

[Chrispy]

I think "automatic return" is the minimum level of automation a TT needs... falling asleep or walking away and letting the tone arm and needle bounce back and forth on the inner part of the record for hours or more is not good. I put the "fully manual" TT craze in the same category as the "no tone control craze" .... a good excuse for the manufacturers to save money and at the same time "say it is better" when it's not.

Or you can use a simple mechanical lift added to your manual tt.....but good point (oh been there done that!), automatic does have its attraction as long as quiet and reliable....

 

[billmr]

I think "automatic return" is the minimum level of automation a TT needs... falling asleep or walking away and letting the tone arm and needle bounce back and forth on the inner part of the record for hours or more is not good. I put the "fully manual" TT craze in the same category as the "no tone control craze" .... a good excuse for the manufacturers to save money and at the same time "say it is better" when it's not.

Yes, yes , yes this. I have one fully manual one and it is a pita, and the needle has traveled on the end groove sometimes for days

I have some more auto ones that I switched it out with cause of that.

 

[Maxicut]

Thanks. That makes a lot of sense. On the platter mat, would you recommend something simple like a felt slipmat to go thinner, or something else?

If you have a rubber slipmat on there ATM, maybe go for 1mm cork. There's not many options to componsate for no VTA adjustment

 

[Angsty]

I recently was given my grandfather's old high end turntable from the late 70's. I had it repaired and then went on a binge collecting my favorite albums of the last 20 years to the extent I could find color / limited edition versions thereof. While I definitely went overboard, I really like the collecting and physical medium part of vinyl.

On the other hand, the turntable sounds..... just fine. This is in comparison to my digital setup which blows me away (even though it is definitely budget, as you will see below). In part, I wonder if this is because the repair shop talked me into installing a $50 Ortofon OM 5s cartridge (my pre-amp is definitely good enough and the turntable was top of the line in its day and caringly restored by the shop I took it to).

So my question is, if I put a $200-$400 cartridge on the turntable, how much will that improve the quality? I know it will never touch the digital setup, but I am wondering if I can make the listening experience a bit closer to the richness and sound stage I get from digital. Otherwise, I may slow down on the vinyl collecting (and only play the vinyl records when I am in the mood), even though I really love the collecting part of it.

SETUP:

Digital --> Tidal HIFI (over UAAP) --> SMSL M500 ---> Emotiva SP-1 Phono Preamplifier and Analog Input Selector --> Schiit Loki (only on sometimes) ---> Emotiva BasX a-100 ---> KEF Q150

Vinyl --> vintage 1979 Mitsubishi DP-EC2 (with new Ortofon OM 5s cartridge) ---> Emotiva SP-1 Phono Preamplifier and Analog Input Selector --> Schiit Loki (only on sometimes) ---> Emotiva BasX a-100 ---> KEF Q150

Thanks!

You will find there is no end to the incremental investments you can make in vinyl. But while it will never sound the same as your digital system, you can tune it more to your liking.

I agree that upgrading the OM stylus, within the cartridge family, can make an audible difference. I recently upgraded my main rig from an Ortofon 2M Blue to a Hana SL - from a MM with a nude elliptical profile stylus to a MC with a Shibata profile. A big jump in price, but I’m very pleased with the performance. I was surprised at the difference, but it was not “night and day”.

Sellers will be happy to take every dollar you are willing to offer, but my advice would be to plan with a limit in mind, make changes slowly so that you can really tell the effects of each change, and have fun enjoying the journey - you may never reach the summit, but the scenic overlooks are worthwhile.

See: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/what-did-it-take-for-your-phono-system-to-sound-“right”-to-you.22626/

 

[aerochrome2]

You will find there is no end to the incremental investments you can make in vinyl. But while it will never sound the same as your digital system, you can tune it more to your liking.

I agree that upgrading the OM stylus, within the cartridge family, can make an audible difference. I recently upgraded my main rig from an Ortofon 2M Blue to a Hana SL - from a MM with a nude elliptical profile stylus to a MC with a Shibata profile. A big jump in price, but I’m very pleased with the performance. I was surprised at the difference, but it was not “night and day”.

Sellers will be happy to take every dollar you are willing to offer, but my advice would be to plan with a limit in mind, make changes slowly so that you can really tell the effects of each change, and have fun enjoying the journey - you may never reach the summit, but the scenic overlooks are worthwhile.

See: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/what-did-it-take-for-your-phono-system-to-sound-“right”-to-you.22626/

I finally upgraded the stylus to the Ortofon OM 20 (the equivalent of moving to the Ortofon 2M Blue, but it was a 10 second install without having to replace my whole cartridge, which was really nice). I have only listened to 2-3 albums so far, but I think this is what I was looking for. The sound is fantastic (I can only imagine what the 40 would sound like, but not ready to drop $550 yet... one day).

 

[DVDdoug]

The sound is fantastic (I can only imagine what the 40 would sound like, but not ready to drop $550 yet... one day).

You do run into diminishing returns. Every cartridge will sound different (at least to some extent) and it's easy to convenience yourself that the different sound is "better". Your favorite cartridge in a blind listening test probably wouldn't be a super-expensive one (but it probably wouldn't be a super-cheap one either ).

And unless you have an actual-identifiable distortion problem (which should only happen on some records) the main difference between cartridges is frequency response, and that can be tweaked with EQ.

And the real weak link is the records themselves. Plus, the frequency balance on records varies a LOT... A lot more than the frequency response variations you get with a different cartridge, as long as you are comparing "good" cartridges.

IMO there were very few "good sounding" records back in the vinyl days, at least in the rock/popular genres. ...I don't know anything about modern records because I stopped buying records when I got my 1st CD player.

 

[Robert C]

It is possible to get vinyl to sound subjectively very close to digital. Or course, once you drill down into the specs and measurements you'll find problems with wow/flutter, SNR, and distortion.

As a professional audio transfer engineer, it's my job to ensure the digitised sound is as close as possible to its analogue original. That means eliminating, to the best of my abilities, the idiosyncrasies associated with analogue playback. Essentially making the analogue chain behave as "digitally" (or "objectively") as possible.

In the case of vinyl, a direct drive turntable is essential. Wow/flutter as close to an ideal 0.01% as possible. SNR must be higher than vinyl, which is 70 dB at best. RIAA equalisation must be accurate to 0.5 dB and the phono preamp needs to have an SNR greater than the turntable's. A line-contact (aka microline) stylus is critical for avoiding distortion. The entire setup must be configured with the aid of a test LP to ensure accuracy, particularly of the cartridge angle. The disc must of course be cleaned, an ultrasonic bath works best in my experience.

With all this in place, the resulting playback should give you an excellent representation of the disc's recorded signal. I have compared digital master files against digitised LPs that were pressed using said files and the subjective listening result, switching back and forth, was of an identical sound. When comparing frequency response plots, they were very close.