How Cheap is Your Sub?

[Blumlein 88]

I see several on this page. Which did you get?

http://www.daytonaudio.com/index.php/home-audio-video/finished-speakers/subwoofer-systems.html

(I guess it applies to @RayDunzl if his cheap subs are Dayton's, too)

Due to space constraints the Sub 1200s. Which are usually cheaper at other places than Dayton. Also PE will put them on a super sale a couple times a year. Normally $148 at PE. I do have a little experience with people using other cheap subs in the $150-300 range. The Daytons are better than the few of those I have had hands on. Most of the others don't really meet claimed spec or have too flimsy a box.

Now I have one JBL LSR 310 to match my 305s. It is probably better though a size smaller as it seems to have unusually good excursion capabilities and more power. More importantly it is built to crossover to the 305s with no other gear nor extra outputs from your preamp and uses XLRs throughout. I would have gotten a better result with a pair of Dayton Sub 1200's and had some money left over if space and a sub out are not a problem.

 

[Sal1950]

Current subs here are a pair of HSU Research STF2's 10" 200watt woofers, cost was $375 each, shipped. They fit my size requirements and Dr Hsu had voiced them specially to
mate with my speakers as per a phone conversation with him at the time. Great guy. I'm happy with the performance in the limited, odd shaped space they occupy., No longer in production.
http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/stf-2.html

 

[NorthSky]

....and you still need 4 in a room to make it work well

Yes, @ the very least.

Eight is good; one on each side of your couch, and two more right behind it.
...In addition to the ones in each corner of your room.

But what if your room is an hexagon, or an octagon?

 

[Blumlein 88]

Yes, @ the very least.

Eight is good; one on each side of your couch, and two more right behind it.
...In addition to the ones in each corner of your room.

But what if your room is an hexagon, or an octagon?

Then use 6 or 8 subs. Maybe you could get custom cabinets made for the angle of hexagonal or octagonal corners.

 

[watchnerd]

Mine are Rythmik F12's, sealed, 370 W amp, Al cone. Since theoretically each sub can add 6 dB SPL (driver + amp) then four subs could add 18 dB over a single sub. That's a lot of extra power and means the individual subs need not run nearly as loud. The curves compress in the LF region so, unlike midrange where 10 dB sounds roughly twice as loud, for subs doubling in perceived volume may only require 5~6 dB. So if you add another sub you can really downsize and keep the same SPL, IF (a big if!) you actually attain that SPL increase. In practice it will vary a bit with frequency and such, but also remember a properly placed additional sub that counters a null can have a much larger effective gain, like 20 ~ 40 dB in-room.

Any driver typically exhibits higher distortion well before bottoming out, but it depends upon the driver (and amplifier) parameters. There are many parameters and trades so I'll defer to speaker designers. One thing to bear in mind is that distortion in a sub often makes them sound louder and "fuller, richer" to listeners because, esp. for very LF signals, it is much easier to hear the distortion than the fundamental.

About all I know on the subject, carry on.

Not to pick on you or your choices, I've heard the name Rythmik a lot recently, and looking at the specs and marketing, they seem on par with SVS, Hsu, and similar. Solid products, good value for money.

But they don't seem to be quite in the same pricey echelon as more expensive products like the JL Fathom series.

Of course, that's not to say they're bad, but as that fair? Am I missing something?

 

[Ron Party]

I have two of Mark Seaton's subs and after my daughter graduates from college I will acquire two more.

 

[RayDunzl]

I have found it tends to fall into just a couple of issues, integration with the mains and underdamped/ringing subs.

Underdamping...

Hmm...

Here's a 100ms test of the subs only: Signal, Close Mic, and Listening Position, for two different short 30Hz signals. Time alignment is inexact.

Without EQ (room correction):

With EQ/room correction applied:

 

[RayDunzl]

And...

Comment on the two signals:
Only a synth could produce the first signal. It is quite unnatural.
The second signal, in my opinion of course, would more closely approximate something that might actually come from a real instrument.


At the listening position, with subs + mains, with and without "room correction"

My opinion would be that of all of the above, the real-signal full-range reproduction room corrected listening position result (check mark) most closely resembles the raw signal.

 

[watchnerd]

Current subs here are a pair of HSU Research STF2's 10" 200watt woofers, cost was $375 each,

They really should have named those the STFU 2.

 

[watchnerd]

Yes, @ the very least.

Eight is good; one on each side of your couch, and two more right behind it.
...In addition to the ones in each corner of your room.

But what if your room is an hexagon, or an octagon?

8???

 

[FrantzM]

Being a fan of the multi-sub approach (Deep suspicion that what we hear in the bass is the room bass response. I haven't been able to put this in word but uniformity of bass within the room is important in what is perceived as "good" bass). After having experienced multi-sub, I can no longer accept the bass coming from even a pair of subs (let alone) one subs in most rooms. It is to be experienced to appreciate. Of course the usual "everything else being equal) that is care taken into the integration. proper crossover point roll-off and EQ , etc. It is not a simple thing to accomplish but once (quite a bit of time , unless you're the Scrutinizer) there is no going back.
Rodney Gold somewhat steered me toward the multi-cheap subs .. He tried some cheapo Yamaha subs with his Vivid Giya 1 and liked the results. Knowing the experiences of others with the Dayton sub $200 subs ... I am even more interested into going with 4 of such subs , perhaps a DIY Dayton with 15 inch and run these with some Behringer iNuke...

On this someone need to put a how-to multi subs with procedures, measuring techniques, methods , etc...
Enough with your nice graphs!! and no way for the common people to achieve similar results!! Yes!!! Ray and Don and Amir and ... I AM TALKING TO YOU!!!!

 

[RayDunzl]

no way for the common people to achieve similar results!!

I'm a common people.

Sometimes my business cards said Engineer, but they lied.



As for multi-subs, mine are still stacked next to the mains - stereo left/right...

 

[March Audio]

Being a fan of the multi-sub approach (Deep suspicion that what we hear in the bass is the room bass response. I haven't been able to put this in word but uniformity of bass within the room is important in what is perceived as "good" bass). After having experienced multi-sub, I can no longer accept the bass coming from even a pair of subs (let alone) one subs in most rooms. It is to be experienced to appreciate. Of course the usual "everything else being equal) that is care taken into the integration. proper crossover point roll-off and EQ , etc. It is not a simple thing to accomplish but once (quite a bit of time , unless you're the Scrutinizer) there is no going back.
Rodney Gold somewhat steered me toward the multi-cheap subs .. He tried some cheapo Yamaha subs with his Vivid Giya 1 and liked the results. Knowing the experiences of others with the Dayton sub $200 subs ... I am even more interested into going with 4 of such subs , perhaps a DIY Dayton with 15 inch and run these with some Behringer iNuke...

On this someone need to put a how-to multi subs with procedures, measuring techniques, methods , etc...
Enough with your nice graphs!! and no way for the common people to achieve similar results!! Yes!!! Ray and Don and Amir and ... I AM TALKING TO YOU!!!!

Just stuff one in each corner and she'll be right

1 sub

2 subs diagonal

2 subs front

3 subs

4 Sub Nirvana

If you time align you will still require a bit of EQ but it will be far more equal around the room

 

[Jinjuku]

I'm doing the two subs diagonal.

 

[NWCgrad]

I run dual Eminence Lab-12 based DIY subs (22 Hz tuning) off a single QSC 1815HD amp, supplement with the mains low frequency drivers (JBL Pro 2242H, 20 Hz tuning). So really I am running 4 subs, two up front and two I read of the room.

 

[watchnerd]

If one uses more than 2 subs in a stereo set up, how do you wire them up?

In phase?

RCA with splitters? Speaker wires?

Wireless?

 

[DonH56]

If one uses more than 2 subs in a stereo set up, how do you wire them up?

In phase?

RCA with splitters? Speaker wires?

Wireless?

First you have to decide if you are actually going to run them as stereo subs or not...

• As stereo subs, I used an active crossover before the amps, placed the subs near the L/R speakers, and to the AVR they were "large" speakers. A hybrid system.
• I have also used the stereo sub setting in my processor (Emotiva XMC-1) and it treats the subs in stereo. Or so they say. It seemed to work OK.
• Despite using stereo subs for decades, after going back and forth I am currently running them (four) as a mono swarm instead. The front pair and back pair are equidistant (as pairs) from the MLP so I am EQ'ing them as two individual subs to the processor for now.
  • Initially I used the continuous phase control on the subs to align the front and back pair, then connected them as a single sub to the processor.
  • I later tried the dual-mono setting to help time-align them and it worked, saving me the hassle of measuring and aligning phase manually, so that is how they are running now.
  • However you connect them the phase must be aligned at the crossover point so everything plays together at the MLP. I have used a combination of phase control on the subs and whatever the AVR/processor can do (have used Audyssey, MCACC, and currently Dirac Live, though delays are generally set by the component outside the actual room correction algorithm).
• All my subs are hard-wired using RCA or XLR. Never tried wireless.
  • The front pair, which I have had for many years now, have RCA connections to the amp.
  • The rear pair, a recent addition, have XLR inputs and so I am using them. Part of the driver for XLR was because they are on a different power circuit (AC wall outlet, line, breaker) than the front pair and I didn't want to deal with ground loops. They are also at the back of the room so the cables are fairly long (50'; only really need about 30'~35', but I had 20' and 50' XLR cables around).
  • I have used splitters, separate sub outputs when available, and/or subs that have "pass through" connectors.
  • I have an aversion to using speaker-level inputs, both because they tend to exhibit higher noise, and because that by default means the mains are running full-range and to me that obviates one of the primary reasons for adding subs.

FWIWFM,
Don

 

[Jinjuku]

If one uses more than 2 subs in a stereo set up, how do you wire them up?

In phase?

RCA with splitters? Speaker wires?

Wireless?

I run 12AWG from the amp to the subs. Then I use the DSP in the AMP to time align(delay) and manage X-Over and EQ.

 

[NorthSky]

Low bass is omnidirectional, mono for me.

As for phase, whatever produces the most output @ the passband point...x-over. ...The best transition below and above the low-pass filter.
Mine are both equally equidistant and both @ zero degree...in phase.

RCA connections for me, with 'Y' connector/splitter @ the pre/pro sub output.
Some have dual or even triple sub outs.
Triple shielded interconnects.

 

[watchnerd]

two I read of the room.

I'm not clear what you mean by this.