How can this be considered neutral?

[solderdude]

What about headphones that roll-off above say 100Hz (those with boosted lows) are these not 'defective-by-design garbage based on obsolete last-century technology'

 

[Monstieur]

What about headphones that roll-off above say 100Hz (those with boosted lows) are these not 'defective-by-design garbage based on obsolete last-century technology'

They can be fixed with EQ or full measurement & calibration. -10 dB at 20 Hz can't.

 

[PolkFan]

No - any headphone that rolls off the bass above 20 Hz is crap. They're defective-by-design garbage based on obsolete last-century technology made for audiofools.

Haha i would say that but i would say its NOT neutral

 

[andreasmaaan]

@Monstieur what are some examples of open-backed headphones you consider to be not garbage?

 

[Monstieur]

@Monstieur what are some examples of open-backed headphones you consider to be not garbage?

With dynamic drivers, the Focal Clear for open-back and the Beyerdynamic T1 2nd Generation for semi-open. I would say the 20 Hz point on those is just at the roll-off, and the region above that is a hump which can be fixed. Most planar magnetics are fixable, but most electrostatics aren't.

 

[andreasmaaan]

With dynamic drivers, the Focal Clear for open-back and the Beyerdynamic T1 2nd Generation for semi-open. I would say the 20 Hz point on those is just at the roll-off, and the region above that is a hump which can be fixed. Most planar magnetics are fixable, but most electrostatics aren't.

Thanks. The reason I asked is that I've always found it hard to find open-backed headphones that have a smooth response in the upper-midrange/treble and sub-bass extension. And I'm not sure the two headphones you've suggested change my mind, TBH. Both have a somewhat ragged upper-midrange/treble response, at least according to measurements here and here.

It's the response in these mid-high frequencies that I place a higher premium on when selecting headphones.

 

[Monstieur]

Thanks. The reason I asked is that I've always found it hard to find open-backed headphones that have a smooth response in the upper-midrange/treble and sub-bass extension. And I'm not sure the two headphones you've suggested change my mind, TBH. Both have a somewhat ragged upper-midrange/treble response, at least according to measurements here and here.

It's the response in these mid-high frequencies that I place a higher premium on when selecting headphones.

My Amiron Home which has a similar treble response to the T1 2nd Gen has acceptable treble to my ears, unlike what the huge spike in the graph implies. However it has no sub-bass.

My best sounding headphone is the LCD-2 Classic in conjunction with the Audeze Reveal+ plugin to correct the frequency response. Without the plugin, the treble is distorted. I can add a +15 dB low-shelf at 50 Hz and it vibrates like a sub-woofer with no audible distortion. It's unbelievable how powerful it feels.

 

[maverickronin]

Both have a somewhat ragged upper-midrange/treble response, at least according to measurements here and here.

The Clears are much more tolerable if you're sensitive to that kind of thing.

As for the T1's...On other forums which don't mind a bit of flowery language, we sometimes refer to "climbing mount Beyer".

 

[PolkFan]

What about headphones that roll-off above say 100Hz (those with boosted lows) are these not 'defective-by-design garbage based on obsolete last-century technology'

Since i can find $100 headphones that don't do that i would call those good enough headphones for skype

 

[PolkFan]

I guess we all love different things but if i had to make a terrible assumption(i know) i would think that most would prefer a neutral to slightly warm experience in headphones. I personally prefer neutral to slightly bright not Beyer bright but more like AKG bright.

Point being i only heard the 770's and i enjoy them i guess barely use them unless i need a closed back but i would think i'd hate the treble on the 1990's or T1's same with most of the population.

 

[MRC01]

To me, most headphones do not sound neutral, they are too forward in the upper mids. If I put my hands behind my ears and cup them forward, that's what most headphones sound like to me. Yuck. Many dynamic headphones have a resonance between 5k and 10k that is like a drill on my skull. Like the Beyerdynamic shown above, and the HD800. These headphones sound good to others, so I probably have a different HRTF. Also, I can hear down to about 16-17 Hz (which is normal for most people) so deep bass extension is important to me - but I hate bloated distorted bass. That kind of clean, tight, flat, deep extended bass response is hard to find in dynamic headphones, you only really see it with the better quality orthos. Given the above, it's no surprise that the Audeze LCD-2F are one of the few headphones that sound close to neutral to me, meaning they sound more like natural sounds around me in the real world. And more like the same thing playing on speakers. But they sound too "flat" or "dead" to many other people due to their response dip around 4k.

All that is to say, "neutral" is a loaded ambiguous word when it comes to headphones. People agree more often on which speakers sound natural, than which headphones. I think individual HRTF variation causes much of that.

 

[Monstieur]

Like the Beyerdynamic shown above, and the HD800. These headphones sound good to others

The HD800 doesn't sound good to anyone - they just want to justify their purchase. Maybe if you're willing to sacrifice everything else in exchange for soundstage... With Sonarworks calibration it would be great.

 

[PolkFan]

The HD800 doesn't sound good to anyone - they just want to justify their purchase. Maybe if you're willing to sacrifice everything else in exchange for soundstage... With Sonarworks calibration it would be great.

?????????

I listened to quite a bit of cans and i have to say i loved the 800's but i never have 1500$ laying around to spend money on them. I prefer headphones with superior sound stage. What would you recommend for that?

 

[PolkFan]

We should make a thread trashing crappy headphones i saw the frequency response for beats and bose headphones and saw the beats try and do a square wave and said wow WTF is that?

I should work for beats

 

[Monstieur]

?????????

I listened to quite a bit of cans and i have to say i loved the 800's but i never have 1500$ laying around to spend money on them. I prefer headphones with superior sound stage. What would you recommend for that?

Once you get used to how your favourite tracks sound on calibrated full-range headphones / home theatre, you'll immediately notice the HD800's terrible frequency response.

Sonarworks calibration (or the equivalent like Audeze Reveal+) is a must for most headphones. A calibrated HD800 would retain its soundstage.

 

[maverickronin]

The HD800 doesn't sound good to anyone - they just want to justify their purchase.

Stock at least. It's informal appellation of "face tweeter" quite apt.

With mods and/or EQ it's still hands down the best dynamic.

I listened to quite a bit of cans and i have to say i loved the 800's but i never have 1500$ laying around to spend money on them. I prefer headphones with superior sound stage. What would you recommend for that?

You can get the the non "S" used for 7 or $800 and mod them to be even better.. I keep going back and forth on whether I should buy one just for the comfort.

 

[Monstieur]

We should make a thread trashing crappy headphones i saw the frequency response for beats and bose headphones and saw the beats try and do a square wave and said wow WTF is that?

The new Beats models like the Powerbeats Pro and Beats Solo Pro have reference quality frequency response and distortion. They track the Harman target very well. Bose over-ear headphones still suffer from audible distortion despite a good frequency response.