How can I get my HTPC to sound as good as my BlueSound Node2i?

[richard12511]

Just bought a new Windows Laptop I had planned to use as a HTPC and Roon Core, but just like the 3 other machines I've tried, the sound quality is terrible. Switching back and forth between the Roon Server playing on WASAPI output via USBc to HDMI converter cable into my Yamaha Aventage RX-A880 AVR and the Bluesound Node2I output via optical to the AVR makes the difference in sound quality quite obvious.. I've read Amir's thread about HDMI audio, so I knew going in that it wouldn't be optimal, but I guess I didn't think it would degrade the sound as much as it seems to be doing. I tend to think all electronics sound mostly the same, but that's obviously not the case here. I had thought that perhaps it was a MacOS thing, as the previous machines I've tried to use were Macbook Pros, but now that I'm experiencing the same bad sound with 2 windows machines(tried my Surface Pro as well), I know that it's not that.

Before anyone asks, no, the comparisons were not done blind, but there was no need, as the difference is quite large. Switching back and forth between the Blusound and the HTPC makes my 8351b speakers sound like my Google Nest Speaker. Seems to be more distortion and a lack of deep bass, and it hurts my ears if I try to turn it up.

Roon is configured correctly to pass through audio, and it's giving me the Purple light showing hirez is working(not that that matters).

Is HDMI the most likely culprit?
How do you guys manage to get decent sound out of your Windows HTPC and into an AVR?

Laptop doesn't have optical out, and even if it did, I also want to pass video as well. I have another Denon AVR with HDMI Arc in another room. Is there anyway that could be used to help? I would just try it, but unplugging all my sources out from behind my rack is gonna be a huge pain, since everything is zip tied and super neat , but if it's worth trying, I'll do it. I'd still be going HTPC ->(HDMI or USBc) -> TV -> HDMI ARC -> AVR. Wouldn't the output on the HTPC still be the limiting factor. I don't understand digital audio at all.

Also, I've been using my PS4 and Nintendo switch via HDMI into the same AVR and I've never noticed bad sound quality there, though perhaps that's just because I've never had anything to compare it to.

I wanna make this work, cause I've always wanted a HTPC for the many benefits it brings. Plus, that's the entire reason I bought this new machine .

 

[Hayabusa]

maybe you can do a REW measurement of the whole path and see if you have for instance more than normal jitter?

 

[WesParker]

Have you tried connecting the HTPC HDMI directly to the AVR? This would eliminate the TV as the source of poor sound.

 

[pozz]

Things that comes to mind are:

• Gain staging. Something might be clipping somewhere, or set at too low a volume and then boosted heavily. You might not even know that it's on, like an EQ or other DSP.
• A terribly broken digital pass-through, either software or hardware. Resampling that shouldn't be happening or something of the kind.

I don't have specific troubleshooting advice other than trying to isolate each stage and each input/output combo until you find the culprit.

 

[richard12511]

maybe you can do a REW measurement of the whole path and see if you have for instance more than normal jitter?

I don’t know how to measure jitter yet, but I bet it would show in the frequency response with pink noise playing. I’ll see if I can get a measurement tomorrow.

 

[richard12511]

Have you tried connecting the HTPC HDMI directly to the AVR? This would eliminate the TV as the source of poor sound.

It’s plugged directly into the AVR atm, though I guess I could try hdmi into the TV and then optical out from the TV into the AVR.

 

[richard12511]

Things that comes to mind are:

• Gain staging. Something might be clipping somewhere, or set at too low a volume and then boosted heavily. You might not even know that it's on, like an EQ or other DSP.
• A terribly broken digital pass-through, either software or hardware. Resampling that shouldn't be happening or something of the kind.

I don't have specific troubleshooting advice other than trying to isolate each stage and each input/output combo until you find the culprit.

Thanks. It’s gotta be something that’s common on all 4 machines(both MacOS machines and both Windows machines). They all sound terrible, but tellingly they all sound terrible in the seemingly same way. Also don’t think it’s the AVR, as every other source other than the 4 HTPCs sounds fine.

 

[Hayabusa]

I don’t know how to measure jitter yet, but I bet it would show in the frequency response with pink noise playing. I’ll see if I can get a measurement tomorrow.

Use the spectrum analyser of REW and look at a pure sine wave. The jitter components should be visible close to that tone. Use max fft length to get a good frequency resolution.

 

[andreasmaaan]

Hi @richard12511, firstly a big disclaimer: I've never used HDMI at all (for audio)

Having said that, looking at the problem logically, what you have in common to all the bad-sounding signal paths but not the good-sounding signal path (the Bluesound via optical) are:

• USB-C to HDMI converter
• TV
• HDMI ARC
• HDMI input on the AVR

I guess I'd work out what's at fault by elimination. First try bypassing the USB-C converter using one of your computers that has an HDMI output. Next try plugging directly from the computer to the HDMI ARC. Then try bypassing the ARC and going straight from the computer to the AVR. Finally, try replacing the AVR with the other one you have in storage.

This should at least pinpoint where the problem lies (if I've understood the problem/setup correctly).

 

[Hayabusa]

Hi @richard12511, firstly a big disclaimer: I've never used HDMI at all (for audio)

Having said that, looking at the problem logically, what you have in common to all the bad-sounding signal paths but not the good-sounding signal path (the Bluesound via optical) are:

• USB-C to HDMI converter
• TV
• HDMI ARC
• HDMI input on the AVR

I guess I'd work out what's at fault by elimination. First try bypassing the USB-C converter using one of your computers that has an HDMI output. Next try plugging directly from the computer to the HDMI ARC. Then try bypassing the ARC and going straight from the computer to the AVR. Finally, try replacing the AVR with the other one you have in storage.

This should at least pinpoint where the problem lies (if I've understood the problem/setup correctly).

ARC can be configured to do re-encoding. Could be a source of degradation?

 

[richard12511]

Thanks to everyone who helped. After experimenting today on my lunch break, I was able to track the issue down to the HDMI7 port on my Yamaha AVR. I knew it was likely to be a problem with either the cable or the port, as that was something common to all the problem use cases.

Disappointing that HDMI 7 is dysfunctional, but ultimately not a huge deal, since I don't need 7 of them anyway . Only using 4 right now, in fact.

 

[richard12511]

Hi @richard12511, firstly a big disclaimer: I've never used HDMI at all (for audio)

Having said that, looking at the problem logically, what you have in common to all the bad-sounding signal paths but not the good-sounding signal path (the Bluesound via optical) are:

• USB-C to HDMI converter
• TV
• HDMI ARC
• HDMI input on the AVR

I guess I'd work out what's at fault by elimination. First try bypassing the USB-C converter using one of your computers that has an HDMI output. Next try plugging directly from the computer to the HDMI ARC. Then try bypassing the ARC and going straight from the computer to the AVR. Finally, try replacing the AVR with the other one you have in storage.

This should at least pinpoint where the problem lies (if I've understood the problem/setup correctly).

Always the best way to solve problems like this.

 

[kcc]

Ah, Dell laptop. Last year I bought a fancy XPS 15 laptop and the first thing I did was running REW on it. The result was totally messed up with my dual subs showing no output below 90Hz. The culprit was the Waves Maxx Audio driver pre-installed on the laptop. Once it was removed (and it wasn't easy), all problems went away.

 

[hotnail]

How did you manage removing that Waves thing - I did it once, however it gets re-installed now by Windows Update :-/

 

[bloodshoteyed]

in case of bloatware like that i always prefer to do a fresh OS iinstall, if it comes with Win10 just be carefull what version it came with and get the same through MS online (their installer/media creation tool)

 

[Snoopy]

That's interesting. Because the DAC in the bluesound devices isn't even that good to begin with.

 

[Jimbob54]

That's interesting. Because the DAC in the bluesound devices isn't even that good to begin with.

I don't believe the dac in the Node was ever in play in OP. The signal in both cases is digital until the AVR.