How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent?

[Old_School_Brad]

This forum can be a bit rough on people like Don and I'm not sure it really helps in the long run.

In that spirit I will hold back on my detailed MIT, Georgia Tech and Princeton references and response to his 'climate denier' call-out, seeing as he is already lying bruised and bloodied on the forum sidewalk.

That’s not quite how I see it. He (and others) were given plenty of helpful links and explanations in a respectful manner. However, he chose to dismiss them and stick firmly to his perspective, which naturally led to some pushback. If someone asks for evidence and explanations but doesn’t engage with what’s provided, it’s difficult to be sympathetic.

Appealing to authority rarely works -unless you’re a police officer, in which case your uniform speaks for itself. It can be effective, but only if you take the opportunity to share specific experiences and explain how they contribute to the discussion. Otherwise, it often feels like a forced analogy to me, much like comparing everything to cars. The most effective approach, I believe, is to discuss and address the topic directly, without framing it through unrelated personal experiences, whether as a carpenter or a NASA engineer.

 

[Mart68]

This forum can be a bit rough on people like Don and I'm not sure it really helps in the long run.

In that spirit I will hold back on my detailed MIT, Georgia Tech and Princeton references and response to his 'climate denier' call-out, seeing as he is already lying bruised and bloodied on the forum sidewalk.

He was rough on himself.

I know enough to know how much I don't know. So I come here to learn. I learn something here almost every day, and I'm grateful for that.

He comes here, arrogant, thinking he can tell experts their business when he's clearly not an expert and has many misconceptions. There's no value in that for him or for us.

 

[antcollinet]

I learn something here almost every day,

Me too. And that is after a 35+ year career in various electronic engineering roles.

No-one knows so much that there isn't anything left to learn.

But, it is important to note, that learning doesn't come from uninformed layperson speculation about the infinite possible ways (all with close to zero probability) that there may be holes in our (humanities) current knowledge.

 

[traind]

He was rough on himself.

I know enough to know how much I don't know. So I come here to learn. I learn something here almost every day, and I'm grateful for that.

He comes here, arrogant, thinking he can tell experts their business when he's clearly not an expert and has many misconceptions. There's no value in that for him or for us.

My reading of the recent thread pages shows a few things

* A typically searching newcomer asking questions that are being fueled largely by other audio forums with very different takes. This manifested itself in Don repeatedly asking questions because he was trying to to sort out the truth of the matter in his own head. From his perspective, he has been reading the typical audiophile lines for possibly months or years before he got here so it is not an automatic thing to read a few well composed posts here and suddenly see the light. It often takes time and repeated questions. These questions seem to have been taken as arrogance and derision from Don by some of the people in the thread. Others were more patient.

* Are comments like this one helpful? "I find it unbelievably obnoxious when people who clearly have zero understanding what they're talking about presume to smugly pontificate about flaws in engineering performance metrics. Do mind the door on your way out - this forum will be perfectly fine without these sorts of impossibly asinine "contributions".".

Science starts with questions and Don was asking his. Yes, many of you gave very nicely composed answers and were generous with your time. But patience is required to change hearts and minds. Contributing to his questions is optional. If you lose patience with someone you could also choose just not to respond further. Remember, a newcomer's skepticism is enhanced when the dominant societal thinking is contrary to ASR's message and in audiophile culture, ASR is not the dominant thinking.

Audiophiles have been gaslit for years, it isn't easy to overcome it.

 

[pkane]

* Are comments like this one helpful? "I find it unbelievably obnoxious when people who clearly have zero understanding what they're talking about presume to smugly pontificate about flaws in engineering performance metrics. Do mind the door on your way out - this forum will be perfectly fine without these sorts of impossibly asinine "contributions".".

When a guest comes to your house and starts telling you that you got it all wrong, that your fridge is stocked with the wrong foods, your furniture is positioned wrong and that your kids are ugly, I think that type of a reaction is justified

 

[Mart68]

My reading of the recent thread pages shows a few things

* A typically searching newcomer asking questions that are being fueled largely by other audio forums with very different takes. This manifested itself in Don repeatedly asking questions because he was trying to to sort out the truth of the matter in his own head.

No. He'd compared two DACs without level matching and not blind, perceived a difference, and decided that was conclusive and that therefore current science is missing something big. Then posted to tell us that. It quickly became sea-lioning. People were actually quite patient, I thought.

 

[antcollinet]

No. He'd compared two DACs without level matching and not blind, perceived a difference, and decided that was conclusive and that therefore current science is missing something big. Then posted to tell us that. It quickly became sea-lioning. People were actually quite patient, I thought.

Exactly. I pointed out to him numerous times that he needed to consider the inconsistency of his human auditory system.

Others did the same.

He did not make any real attempt to consider that as a factor - but came back over and over again essentially saying "but I can hear it so the measurements must be faulty / incomplete"

There are only so many ways to give the same answer to the repeated incorrect statements - especially when they are repeatedly ignored.

 

[CedarX]

It often takes time and repeated questions. These questions seem to have been taken as arrogance and derision from Don by some of the people in the thread. Others were more patient.

Unfortunately, repeated questions often indicate a form of “intellectual laziness” (for lack of better words): zero research on the topic, limited efforts to grasp new, sometimes non-trivial, concepts and learn.

If I detect some arrogance, derision, or irritation, in the responses to my questions, I know its time for me to step back and do my own research…

 

[traind]

No. He'd compared two DACs without level matching and not blind, perceived a difference, and decided that was conclusive and that therefore current science is missing something big. Then posted to tell us that. It quickly became sea-lioning. People were actually quite patient, I thought.

Yes, he did do that but you apparently missed the posts where he quoted from other forums or articles and asked about those ideas.
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And everyone so far has expertly ignored the comment I offered as an example of being "a bit rough", lol. I would offer up that most responses to my feedback on the tone toward Don have been met with just about zero curiosity and essentially "No, that's not right at all, I reject every bit of your observation". Sounds suspiciously like how many here are describing Don's behavior, don't you think?

Winning people over to ASR's ideas takes more than just pushing facts and data. I thought it was going well with Don but then blew up as the tone changed. Perhaps in the spirit of ASR, an experiment with a different influence approach might be considered.

 

[traind]

When a guest comes to your house and starts telling you that you got it all wrong, that your fridge is stocked with the wrong foods, your furniture is positioned wrong and that your kids are ugly, I think that type of a reaction is justified

That comes across as a bit too thin skinned for what Don actually said before the tone here changed toward him. However, I may be missing something. Perhaps I missed a specific comment he made that was particularly offensive to you? I'd love to see you reference it for me so I can understand what was so offensive from him. I mean, asking repeated questions may be frustrating for some but I don't think it rises to the level of calling your kids ugly, lol.

 

[antcollinet]

And everyone so far has expertly ignored the comment I offered as an example of being "a bit rough"

You seem to have taken one unacceptable post and are suggesting that is somehow reflective of everyone involved. It isn't.

There is always someone who is going to be a dick - take it up with them.

 

[voodooless]

he quoted from other forums or articles and asked about those ideas.

No he didn’t. He posted them in an attemp to prove him right. Questions where mostly rhetorical.

feedback on the tone toward Don have been met with just about zero curiosity and essentially "No, that's not right at all, I reject every bit of your observation".

Also incorrect. People took the actual time to go through the information and point out what was wrong with it. That is not zero curiosity.

 

[pkane]

That comes across as a bit too thin skinned for what Don actually said before the tone here changed toward him. However, I may be missing something. Perhaps I missed a specific comment he made that was particularly offensive to you? I'd love to see you reference it for me so I can understand what was so offensive from him. I mean, asking repeated questions may be frustrating for some but I don't think it rises to the level of calling your kids ugly, lol.

It's a metaphor, and a smiley face at the end indicates that it was meant as tongue-in-cheek. I'm not going to start quoting Don, as his content contains a ton of misconceptions stated as fact, and is a very transparent case of JAQing off.

 

[oleg87]

Yes, he did do that but you apparently missed the posts where he quoted from other forums or articles and asked about those ideas.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
And everyone so far has expertly ignored the comment I offered as an example of being "a bit rough", lol. I would offer up that most responses to my feedback on the tone toward Don have been met with just about zero curiosity and essentially "No, that's not right at all, I reject every bit of your observation". Sounds suspiciously like how many here are describing Don's behavior, don't you think?

Winning people over to ASR's ideas takes more than just pushing facts and data. I thought it was going well with Don but then blew up as the tone changed. Perhaps in the spirit of ASR, an experiment with a different influence approach might be considered.

To be clear, my comment, which you singled out, was made after Don had already posted a long-winded farewell, replete with condemnations of various ASR strawman he's constructed.

Don struck me as someone here in bad faith and the course of the discussion did nothing to change my mind. The whole SINAD fixation is a big tell when someone is coming here from places like SBAF to concern troll - and by that time the strawmen had gotten to the point of being insulting.

 

[solderdude]

People, no matter how well educated in some areas, have a tendency to search for 'something' that confirms what they already expect to be 'the truth'. In audio mostly because of what they heard/perceived.
The fact that there is a much larger 'believing' crowd that is very vocal on the web for various reasons and the framing of ASR on those websites just reinforces that kind of thinking.
Those folks won't be happy and usually don't 'listen' to reasoning but trust what 'they know'.

You can't win them all. If only some of those folks actually did some of the suggested 'testing' of their own hearing they might see audio in a different light.
Alas all people have biases and like to see them confirmed. This is applicable to all aspects in life.

 

[sonitus mirus]

People, no matter how well educated in some areas, have a tendency to search for 'something' that confirms what they already expect to be 'the truth'. In audio mostly because of what they heard/perceived.
The fact that there is a much larger 'believing' crowd that is very vocal on the web for various reasons and the framing of ASR on those websites just reinforces that kind of thinking.
Those folks won't be happy and usually don't 'listen' to reasoning but trust what 'they know'.

You can't win them all. If only some of those folks actually did some of the suggested 'testing' of their own hearing they might see audio in a different light.
Alas all people have biases and like to see them confirmed. This is applicable to all aspects in life.

Yep, that's what my thumbs-up are for, reaffirming my own confirmation bias with posts that are in agreement with my stodgy and unmoving opinion.

 

[Harmonia]

Hi guys. Here's the DAC you recommended.

I've posted a few articles recently. Well, various people left comments, and I first selected and purchased the DAC after receiving your opinions.

One is the SMSL DL100, which amirm reviewed and showed great results. I bought it because I was curious about the performance of a DAC under $200.

The other is the SMSL DL400. I bought it because the ES9039MSPRO chip had such good reviews. I was considering buying a DAC under $500, but I bought it because I wanted to compare it with the same brand.

I'll just listen to it for about an hour and write a short article.
I'll just write down my thoughts briefly.

Just for reference.

- The headphones are Focal Clear MG Pro.
- I used the FIIO MUSIC APP on my Android phone.
- I turned off all possible filters on the DL400.
- Connected with a Type C USB cable.

1. Both have good harmonic balance and dynamic range. They deliver accurate sound without distortion.

2. When listening to FLAC, there is little difference between the two. Most people are unlikely to be able to tell the difference.

3. When playing music with poor MP3 sound quality, a filter is needed.

4. The DL100 does not have a function to turn off the filter. I think I should use Filter 5.

5. The difference was noticeable when playing DSD music. The DL400 is much better. The stage is wider and the focus is sharper. The dynamic range is also wider. If you have DSD sound sources, you should definitely buy the DL400 and listen to them.

So. Conclusion. I will use the DL400 as the DAC of my hi-fi stereo system. I will use the DL100 as a sub or sell it used.

As you guys said, most people now have no problem using a DAC under $200. Don't you listen to DSD sound sources? There used to be a place where you could get DSD sound sources for demos, but I don't know if they still exist. There was a collection of files for format testing. If anyone needs it, let me know. I'll find it and give you the link.

I've decided on the DAC, so now I have to buy the rest.

PS. Goodbye, Scarlatti. You're going to combine with speakers now. It's been fun.

 

[JIW]

View attachment 435918View attachment 435919View attachment 435920

Hi guys. Here's the DAC you recommended.

I've posted a few articles recently. Well, various people left comments, and I first selected and purchased the DAC after receiving your opinions.

One is the SMSL DL100, which amirm reviewed and showed great results. I bought it because I was curious about the performance of a DAC under $200.

The other is the SMSL DL400. I bought it because the ES9039MSPRO chip had such good reviews. I was considering buying a DAC under $500, but I bought it because I wanted to compare it with the same brand.

I'll just listen to it for about an hour and write a short article.
I'll just write down my thoughts briefly.

Just for reference.

- The headphones are Focal Clear MG Pro.
- I used the FIIO MUSIC APP on my Android phone.
- I turned off all possible filters on the DL400.
- Connected with a Type C USB cable.

1. Both have good harmonic balance and dynamic range. They deliver accurate sound without distortion.

2. When listening to FLAC, there is little difference between the two. Most people are unlikely to be able to tell the difference.

3. When playing music with poor MP3 sound quality, a filter is needed.

4. The DL100 does not have a function to turn off the filter. I think I should use Filter 5.

5. The difference was noticeable when playing DSD music. The DL400 is much better. The stage is wider and the focus is sharper. The dynamic range is also wider. If you have DSD sound sources, you should definitely buy the DL400 and listen to them.

So. Conclusion. I will use the DL400 as the DAC of my hi-fi stereo system. I will use the DL100 as a sub or sell it used.

As you guys said, most people now have no problem using a DAC under $200. Don't you listen to DSD sound sources? There used to be a place where you could get DSD sound sources for demos, but I don't know if they still exist. There was a collection of files for format testing. If anyone needs it, let me know. I'll find it and give you the link.

I've decided on the DAC, so now I have to buy the rest.

PS. Goodbye, Scarlatti. You're going to combine with speakers now. It's been fun.

Did you match levels and if so how?

Did you turn off the reconstruction filters? If so, why?

Why are they required for MP3s but not for lossless files?

Filter 5 on the DL100 is the closest to turning the reconstruction filter on the DL400 off.

The DSD differences may be due to different chips being used - 2 Cirrus Logic CS43131 vs. 1 ESS ES9039MSPRO. Using a cheaper DAC with an ES9039Q2M such as the SMSL D-6s or DL200, the differences to the DL400 may be much less if there are any at all.

 

[ahofer]

Was DSD performance measured? I know some here opine that DSD is often less accurate then lossless, but I've not delved into that debate.

The sound quality of DSD?

Multiple threads here deal with DSD, but I'm yet to see a bit more depth concentrated in one place. DSD For Beginners is boring and tells very little. Based on listening to the sound quality of DSD native from Cirrus Logic chips like that in Sonata HD Pro I find: • S/N ratio of DSD at high...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[BDWoody]

I'll just listen to it for about an hour and write a short article.
I'll just write down my thoughts briefly.

Rather than have a new thread for this, I'm going to move this to a thread where this discussion is destined to go anyway.

Have you seen this video yet?