How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent?

[womanofscience666]

As a reminder:

Let's Avoid the Term Chi-Fi

I often see the use of the term "Chi Fi" to describe audio products from China. I see the intention and don't think anyone is trying to be racist and what have you. Still, I like us to show the highest respect to products from around the world. As avid readers of this forum know...

www.audiosciencereview.com

ah, sorry, I wasn't aware, I'll edit it

welp, since all my posts have been forced here for no real reason I'll say what I think on the topic. DAC measurements do not tell the whole story and have been cheated by incompetent designers at topping and similar companies (not all similar companies though, some of them are making great stuff) and they're just chasing numbers while disregarding actual sound quality. These high SINAD dacs usually sound absolutely terrible (boring at best, painful at worst) and the best dacs I've heard have measured well but not exceptionally

 

[womanofscience666]

Kudos for your service to subjective prattle, you can return to audiogon or similar hole with your DAC badge of honor.

never heard of audiogon, I'm just enjoying the music I like though products I think sound good. Sorry if that hurt your feelings, I'll do my best not to offend you

 

[womanofscience666]

No, it's because you are spreading a lot of of nonsense, and this is where we contain it so it doesn't pollute the rest of the forum.

enjoying music is nonsense? Well, maybe if you're using Topping dacs since they're miserable experiences but this hobby is about the music and enjoying it

 

[Purité Audio]

ah, sorry, I wasn't aware, I'll edit it

welp, since all my posts have been forced here for no real reason I'll say what I think on the topic. DAC measurements do not tell the whole story and have been cheated by incompetent designers at topping and similar companies (not all similar companies though, some of them are making great stuff) and they're just chasing numbers while disregarding actual sound quality. These high SINAD dacs usually sound absolutely terrible (boring at best, painful at worst) and the best dacs I've heard have measured well but not exceptionally

I wouldn’t describe the engineers at Topping incompetent, thoughtful, and diligent perhaps.
As I mentioned you have to understand how components work and what their measurements mean.
Otherwise you end up sounding a little foolish.
Keith

 

[BDWoody]

never heard of audiogon, I'm just enjoying the music I like though products I think sound good. Sorry if that hurt your feelings, I'll do my best not to offend you

This isn't starting very well, and you are coming across as a new troll on a mission to see how quickly she can be shown out.

These ranting posts that are based on oft heard propaganda with zero actual evidence aren't going to advance anything.

Please back off the snottiness or move along.

 

[BDWoody]

enjoying music is nonsense? Well, maybe if you're using Topping dacs since they're miserable experiences but this hobby is about the music and enjoying it

Ok, I'm going to give you a little time out to just read and get a feel for the place before we continue.

 

[Mr Swing King]

I have still to find a modern dac that sounds different under blind conditions.
It’s funny how much science is lauded over most audiophile sites when it comes to new drivers and gear in general…but trying to get those sites to look at the science behind our hearing, bias and general perception and suddenly, it’s useless.
It’s a strange way of cherry picking…but then again when wallets and egos are in the mix, all bets are off.

 

[Roland68]

enjoying music is nonsense? Well, maybe if you're using Topping dacs since they're miserable experiences but this hobby is about the music and enjoying it

May I then ask which DACs, in your experience, provide a better listening experience than, for example, Topping DACs?

 

[JustJones]

never heard of audiogon, I'm just enjoying the music I like though products I think sound good. Sorry if that hurt your feelings, I'll do my best not to offend you

Sure

 

[boxerfan88]

it's a new Topping DAC. Topping products are generally terrible both in sound and quality and their support is terrible

Wow … that’s an extremely sweeping statement.

Out of curiosity, could you describe “terrible in sound” in a little more detail?

And which DAC model was it that sounded terrible to your ears?

 

[VientoB]

it's a new Topping DAC. Topping products are generally terrible both in sound and quality and their support is terrible

How do you know Topping products generally sound terrible?

 

[NTTY]

Otherwise you end up sounding a little foolish.

Not a little

 

[oleg87]

ah, sorry, I wasn't aware, I'll edit it

welp, since all my posts have been forced here for no real reason I'll say what I think on the topic. DAC measurements do not tell the whole story and have been cheated by incompetent designers at topping and similar companies (not all similar companies though, some of them are making great stuff) and they're just chasing numbers while disregarding actual sound quality. These high SINAD dacs usually sound absolutely terrible (boring at best, painful at worst) and the best dacs I've heard have measured well but not exceptionally

User name does not check out

 

[solderdude]

a real woman of science would never have written what was written by @womanofscience666 .... I guess it is the 666 that is talking.

 

[rank]

Dftt

 

[Yuhasz01]

10,000 postings for a rather pedestrian issue; equipment produces sound waves, not music, which we can measure, (objectivity)and our ears and mind interpret/produce the actual music(subjectivity...ie,perception). If anyone posters finds this confusing or not true that is another problem , not addressable here with pragmatic rational technical arguments. Sort of a quantum entanglement of audio: both exist at the same time but are different.

 

[Mart68]

enjoying music is nonsense? Well, maybe if you're using Topping dacs since they're miserable experiences but this hobby is about the music and enjoying it

Do a blind test between your favourite DAC and a Topping. You'll change your opinion within a minute.

But your arrogance indicates that you won't ever try that. Have fun wasting thousands on pursuing a fantasy - not my idea of a hobby, or of enjoyment, but we're all different.

 

[DSJR]

ah, sorry, I wasn't aware, I'll edit it

welp, since all my posts have been forced here for no real reason I'll say what I think on the topic. DAC measurements do not tell the whole story and have been cheated by incompetent designers at topping and similar companies (not all similar companies though, some of them are making great stuff) and they're just chasing numbers while disregarding actual sound quality. These high SINAD dacs usually sound absolutely terrible (boring at best, painful at worst) and the best dacs I've heard have measured well but not exceptionally

It ain't the dac guv'nor I'd suggest your speakers and or room matching aren't too good right where your hearing is (usually) most sensitive, or maybe you use an audiophile amp with plenty of odd-order distortion as I used to use and sell back in the dark days of the 80s. (back then, they were basically domestic PA amps with poor band limiting filters, but they're rather better today)

Get the speakers and room right, plus go to plenty of live acoustic or jazz concerts with the minimum of a PA and you'll find all these 'terrible' sounding dacs actually 'sound' just fine. I'm still inclined to do this before reality kicks in, but 'we' so often blame the part of the system that's actually working properly - and from tests here and elsewhere, the dacs you rate tend to deviate hugely from the task they're supposed to do. Been there, done that and seriously don't want to return as 'there be dragons '

P.S. Great isn't it, when one emerges from the audiophool bulls**t and begins to forget the 'hobby' side, using the gear merely as a tool to enjoy the music via, rather than the other way round. You want a bigger and more expansive sound? get a bigger pair of speakers in the first instance (adding subs to small squitters is another snake-ridden path for most). My remaining 'thing' is having even modest gear where I can hear differences in production and mixing, something the 'nice sounding' enthusiast hobby gear all to often masks...

 

[Miguelón]

I mean they're hardly solved, there's lots of different ways to do dacs and they all sound different. If you're referring to the fact that topping and other companies like them are making dacs that measure really well that doesn't mean anything, Topping dacs are some of the worst I've ever heard. R2R dacs are getting better than ever and are getting seriously good both in sound and measurements

This is the point that this post is about: no audible differences were found between one DAC or another if they measured as “audible transparent”.

Is not a question of “better” or “worse”, this would be ultimately a matter of taste, but more on the side of no one can distinguish between two DACs if they are carefully matched on voltage output.

This is a fact was not only verified (I avoid the word “proven” as in my experience we can always let some space to statistical errors) but is also according to well known limits of human audition.

Mics and Fourier numeric analysis are way beyond human threshold on frequency analysis, phase analysis, ringing, harmonics or all audible qualities we know.

Only other possibility is that Einstein and Podolsky, two ancient physicists, called ‘hidden variables’. That’s it, there are some “mysterious” qualities of sound that have not been discovered yet and made human perception not measurable in our actual paradigm…

Except for… the late is wrong: if hidden variables exist, then blind test should allow listeners to effectively distinguish among two different DACs.

So only conclusion is all are indistinguishable, once adjusted volume.

 

[Miguelón]

We hear that sentiment a lot ( I don’t think we need the xenophobia) it is always from those who unfortunately do not know how things actually work or understand what their measurements mean.
Stick around and learn something.
Keith

Can balanced output be distinguished between an unbalanced one?

Is the only point where I still believe I can find some very subtle differences between my WiiM Ultra (RCA) and my Ifi Zen Dad Signature V2 (XLR).

I’m not sure, since my personal belief is that RCA should sound worse, so maybe purely psychological.

On my perception side, even if I try to match volumes as close as possibly, I find some extra clarity on the XLR side.
Either on the same DAC (Ifi Zen has both outputs), but this is more difficult since I have to change the preamp knob and cables, so not sure about the volume.

(I forgot to mention that, obviously, filters aren’t equal: maybe another differentiating factor?)


Post editing: probably were the filter, changing the WiiM by default to minimum phase slow roll off trebles seem smoother and I can concentrate better on rest of frequencies, the same impression I had with the Ifi Zen DAC. I don’t know which is the filter of this later, but now I’m less capable to notice any difference