How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent?

[Honken]

Nowhere in Europe is that far away from europeans really. I'd be happy to take part in a blind test conducted by ASR members even if it isn't next doors.

Any other takers?

 

[voodooless]

As Huub is from the NL I would happily test his hearing abilities (blind) with his cables at his home. (when not too far from Gouda).
In the last 40 years I still have to find someone that can (objectively verified) hear differences between cables.

I would volunteer to film it all

 

[Killingbeans]

But to be honest for me it is a bit strange that no-one here seems to hear differences.

That's the thing. We all hear differences. What we're contesting, is the source of those differences.

Brain, not cables

 

[Jim Taylor]

That's the thing. We all hear differences. What we're contesting, is the source of those differences.

Brain, not cables

So true!

Here are two articles that may help us understand the effects of cognitive bias by the brain. They involve a somewhat better explanation of the heuristics that the brain uses:

1) https://www.tomorrow.bio/post/autom...-on-heuristics-2023-06-4669970027-rationality

And an explanation of the "shortcuts" mechanism of the brain:

2) https://ncdsolution.com/blog/cognitive-shortcuts

Jim

 

[AdamG]

QUANTUM entangled preventing the possibility of any form of infidelity.

Sounds like a viable argument for that moment my wife thinks I may have a wandering eye.

 

[voodooless]

my wife thinks I may have a wandering eye

No wonder

 

[antcollinet]

But to be honest for me it is a bit strange that no-one here seems to hear differences.

We all hear differences. I hear differences day to day - or even hour to hour. The gear is not changing though - I am.

Just as it is you that is changing when you hear differences between cables. I'm not surprised you hear differences. I am surprised you've so far failed to grasp (despite all you've read) the reasons you are hearing them.

 

[Jimster480]

The short answer is ‘yes’. I am very serious when I write that I like this forum. But to be honest for me it is a bit strange that no-one here seems to hear differences.

I have tested a lot of gear in the last 25 years. My drive was that I wanted to have a bold, natural, musical sound for all music I love. The problem for me was that there were too many parameters so I switched gear on monthly basis. When I was tired of that I decided to find really good monitor speakers as new starting point. I bought a pair KH420’s, both objective (on ASR) and subjective a top speaker.

The Neumann KH420’s are indeed excellent but are also magnifying glasses for everything you connect to it.

My real question though is how much you listened to the system before and after and if you did any real blind testing on the system at all.
I find that often people don't use their equipment that much and then they buy something new and they use it constantly because that thing is new and now it is the most amazing thing AGAIN. This is a cognitive and emotional thing rather than something measurable.
If you changed a cable and it had a meaningful impact; then your old cable was either partially broken or really poorly made.
I myself have bought a few "upgraded" cables for my headphones over the years; but they were to fit the length, color and material needs that I wanted/needed to use them at my desk. I compared the "sound quality" of these cables and never was able to hear any differences. It is mostly because I don't believe that they would have a difference; so I didn't manifest some difference which didn't exist.

 

[Geert]

It is mostly because I don't believe that they would have a difference ..

Warning; negative bias argument incoming

 

[Jimster480]

Warning; negative bias argument incoming

Of course, any argument can be made. I'm a person with a completely open mind. When I first bought an upgraded headphone cable for my OPPO PM2, I wasn't sure if it would change the sound quality at all. But again, I didn't purchase it specifically for that reason, but instead so that it fit my desk properly, because the cable that came with it was like 12 feet long.

I then got a cable for my Denon AH-mm400. The one that came with it had a microphone on it and bad microphonics overall. But that pure silver OFC special cable that I got, which cost like $40 at the time, did nothing (but it fixed microphonics).
Overall, you could make a cable that costs $20,000, but the only possible thing it could do would reduce internal resistance in the wire itself, which could help for a signal to travel a longer distance without degradation. But otherwise, there would not be any difference in any way that you would be able to hear.

I'm sure that people will get upset one way or the other, but it's just about common sense in general.

 

[raif71]

Let's talk about DAC, baby
Let's talk about you and me
Let's talk about all the good things
And the bad things that may be
Let's talk about DAC

 

[JSmith]

Let's talk about DAC's for now
To the people at home or in the crowd
It keeps coming up anyhow
Don't be coy, avoid, or make void the topic
Cause that ain't gonna stop it
Now we talk about DAC's on the radio and video shows
Many will know, anything goes

JSmith

 

[solderdude]

Sighted comparison, hints are given about what to expect and what's worse not level matched so draw your own conclusion about the validity of this test.

D400EX sample 1 -16dB top spectrum, peak level -2.5dB

D90-III sample 1 -14dB top spectrum, peak level -2dB

DAP800 sample 1 -15dB top spectrum, peak level -4dB



D400EX sample 2 -15dB top spectrum, peak level -4.5dB

D90-III sample 2 -14dB top spectrum, peak level -3.5dB

DAP800 sample 2 -14dB top spectrum, peak level -3dB


In the D90-III versus the D10balanced comparison the levels were matched exactly.



The question is whether or not the amplitude differences in the 3 DAC comparisons were intentional, accidental or the result of video editing ?

 

[voodooless]

The question is whether or not the amplitude differences in the 3 DAC comparisons were intentional, accidental or the result of video editing ?

I'll let Hanlon's razor answer that one

 

[HuubFranssen]

That’s a misconception. Some of us including me can hear it sighted but when sight and all biases are eliminated through DBT volume matched ABX test, all the differences disappear and we realize that our brain is fooling ourselves

I know, I experience it myself. The question is: do you hear these differences again AFTER your ABX test? Does the ABX reset your ears and mind so that in your own house, in your own hifi-set, the differences are gone?

ABX tests are familiar for me, I participated in several of these happenings. Indeed, the standard result was that differences were never proven. One time we compared the cheapest Sony amplifier with a huge and very expensive German 2-box monster connected with an extreme heavy cable. The Sony was mine, I bought it special for the occasion. Before the test I listened a few days to the Sony and I hated it: bright, not musical. During the test, however, no-one was able to hear a difference between the amplifiers. Including me. After the test I took the Sony home and hoped (!) that the impression would survive because then I could sell my own expensive amplifier. But that was not the case, the sound was as terrible as before the ABX. I sold the Sony for a good price to someone who believed in ABX’es.

After many years of experience in subjective listening I am now convinced that music reproduction is too complex to decide within moments, it takes some time. Sometimes even weeks. And when you finally understand the difference between gear it suddenly seems quite substantial too. Another point that make people on this forum furious.

 

[Verig]

After many years of experience in subjective listening I am now convinced that music reproduction is too complex to decide within moments, it takes some time. Sometimes even weeks. And when you finally understand the difference between gear it suddenly seems quite substantial too. Another point that make people on this forum furious.

I can offer you a viewpoint from music production side. The longer I work with something the more I need to check a reference for my ears or ask someone else to take a listen. We get accustomed to even really weird things and on the other hand construct differences in our head over time, like fiddling with a pot that does nothing audible. Listening to a new component for a long time builds upon your feelings of those sessions. It's not just single listenings for a month but the whole.

When nothing changes in your set but after two weeks you feel a substantial difference what happened?

When I listen to new music I only need few seconds to know whether I like the sound or not. When listening to gear why would I need weeks there?

 

[DSJR]

My Chord Dave dac and Neumann KH420 powered speakers finally have met their perfect XLR cable. Until 1 week ago the best sounding cable was an NBS Monitor 1 (one), much musicality but a little bit dark sounding. Therefore I switched from time to time with a more spacious sounding cable.

Then there was that offer of an NBS Monitor 0 (zero) on Marktplaats, the Dutch online market place, from a well known HiFi store in Groningen at the other side of the country (a long 3 hour ride). The cable was new 10.000 dollar/euro but 10 year or so old. Therefore the price was doable so I bought my first ridiculously overpriced cable. When it would be a disappointment it was allowed to send it back.

And it sounds fantastic! The expensive Chord and Neumanns finally have a connection that makes the music shine in every aspect. Does it make it better? No of course not. A cable doesn’t invent things. But now I hear how terrible the other cables I tried sounded: too dark or too bright or boring or not so musical. The Monitor 0 weighs a lot, is very thick, hardly bends but does everything right. My set is very international now with cables from the States, a dac from the UK, German speakers and a streamer from Canada (Bryston).

My wise lesson of today: don’t rely completely on measurements but, when you have the time and/or money, try something else. You may be surprised.

I'd really love to sneak into your listening room and replace said interconnect cable with something like Van Damme and see if you'd really notice.

In past years, I HAVE done cable comparisons and felt there was a difference. The first thing for me as I slowly educated myself, was to notice how *similar* balanced XLR wires could be. RCAs have all manner of measurable variables if you deal with audio-dealers and some domestic sh*t/gear isn't/wasn't well designed, which added to the sonic confusion. I'd politely suggest those days are largely behind us now. You'd be amazed how 'good' the very cheap Amazon Basics RCA cables are for example - dress 'em up a bit and the 'refined sound' could be equivalent to a $/£/E 500 confection bought at a dealer. As for XLR types, the one or two that consistently 'did' appear to 'sound' different were w@nky expensive audiophile confections, where the cables that pros use, were all 'the same' to me - and I admit I haven't tried loads in recent times as I basically gave up and used what I have to hand.

Parting shot - if the Kh420's sound slightly 'dark' to you, why not reduce the bass by a touch, lift the tweeter by a notch or move the speakers closer by a little? That'd sort it I'm sure and cost a lot less than a couple of bits of cable

 

[solderdude]

After many years of experience in subjective listening I am now convinced that music reproduction is too complex to decide within moments, it takes some time. Sometimes even weeks. And when you finally understand the difference between gear it suddenly seems quite substantial too. Another point that make people on this forum furious.

After 35 years in audio and having experience with subjective listening as well as measurements, electronics, and blind testing I am convinced perception is the complex part and most variable. Especially over longer time periods and even within one day.

Because you are already convinced the differences are so small that one could not possible reliable tell 2 cables apart during say ... a few hours of level matched blind testing with statistical relevance.
This probably means you have no interest in me coming over to listen, discuss and do some hands-on cable swapping (at least 20 'listening attempts') where you can reliably enough tell the difference ?

I am genuinely interested in meeting someone that can actually ace such a test.

 

[SIY]

After many years of experience in subjective listening

All listening is subjective. What you mean here is "evaluating sound without basic controls."

 

[voodooless]

ABX tests are familiar for me, I participated in several of these happenings. Indeed, the standard result was that differences were never proven. One time we compared the cheapest Sony amplifier with a huge and very expensive German 2-box monster connected with an extreme heavy cable. The Sony was mine, I bought it special for the occasion. Before the test I listened a few days to the Sony and I hated it: bright, not musical. During the test, however, no-one was able to hear a difference between the amplifiers. Including me. After the test I took the Sony home and hoped (!) that the impression would survive because then I could sell my own expensive amplifier. But that was not the case, the sound was as terrible as before the ABX. I sold the Sony for a good price to someone who believed in ABX’es.

It must be hard living with such cognitive dissonance. It seems you've solved it by simply ignoring it altogether. It's a costly an ineffective solution.