How can bogus claims and inferior audio thrive in a competitive market?

[watchnerd]

I don't think that an intra-track rip would make a difference though, as long as the needle is inside a normally spaced groove. My guess would be that the media noise on vinyl is likely well above the noise floor of the recording..

While the noise floor of LP is likely well above the noise floor of the recording on anything that is made post-WW II (not so sure about 1920s-1930s material), on most of my LPs the lead-in groove sounds noisier than the intra-track grooves by far.

I don't know if it's just the cartridge settling down, or if there is some difference in the actual cutting / stamping.

 

[watchnerd]

My next ripping project will be to go through the tube phono stage and see what impact a tube stage and tube rolling has on the measurements.

Over the last two months, I've added to my collection, now having 14 different pairs of 6DJ8/6922/7308/7DJ8 tubes (2 current production, 12 NOS) so it would be a decent sample size across a decent span of time, country of manufacturer, and tube structures.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Here is a modern BIS all digital recording vs the LP. LP in red and BIS in green. Much larger difference here.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I made several rips, I'm not sure which one this is from, but it might be from a 45 RPM 12" LP (4 sides per album).

@Blumlein 88 Do you recall the file / track name?

ipanema1 as a FLAC.

 

[Blumlein 88]

On additional note:

The LP groove noise is from the lead-in groove on that rip, including the initial needle drop.

As opposed to intra-track grooves.

It is the lead in groove, but I did snip out the actual needle drop. It doesn't clip actually, but comes close on one channel. So this is noise after the needled settles into the groove.

 

[JohnBooty]

Signaling is simply sending information without stating or explaining it. Signaling is ubiquitous in human interaction - we signal status, we signal our knowledge, we signal our job fitness or academic achievements and we signal our wealth.

Purchasing luxury, or very expensive, goods is a way to signal wealth and status. People do it with cars, watches, clothes, houses, art, and even philanthropy. That big wristwatch says you are wealthy enough to afford it. It certainly doesn't tell time better, nor is it necessarily more visible to your presbyopic eyes.

It's interesting to try and square this away with what we see in this audio hobby of ours...

The signaling of one's wealth and/or taste with clothes, cars, watches, houses, etc is fairly simple to understand. These things have nearly universal appeal.

At face value, this audio hobby is pretty much the opposite of universally-appealing. The general public finds this hobby puzzling at best and absolutely laughable at worst. The common perception of audiophiles is not a positive one.

Additionally, the appeal of audio gear (at least the sort we audiophiles tend to covet) tends to be especially low with women. Since so much signalling is designed to either explicitly or implicitly impress the opposite sex, that certainly makes flashy audio gear even more of an outlier.

And on top of all of that, buying expensive audio gear can make you a pariah even inside this hobby. Objectivist audiophiledom has made a strong comeback in recent years thanks to the rise of the internet and communities like ASR. I honestly believe that folks who purchase overpriced cables and such are a minority, even inside this hobby. So one's expensive cables or tube amplifier can get one laughed right out of one's "own" hobbyist circles.

they want something that loudly signals their hobby and the status in the hobby they believe they have achieved. They want their equipment to scream "I have esoteric but refined tastes".

This is a really astute observation.

This is one of the few explanations for buying overpriced and underperforming gear that actually rings true to me. Sort of like being a craft beer enthusiast or coffee enthusiast. They are hobbies that signals to others: "I have taste."

Your date may not understand or care about the weird-looking tube amplifier next to your record player and stack of curated 45s, but that little setup says something about you.

 

[watchnerd]

ipanema1 as a FLAC.

Yeah, that's this.

45 RPM

1st Track, side A

So it's probably quite a bit better in some ways than a regular LP.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Many thanks for this @Blumlein 88. This has taught me a few things.

Things get much closer from 300 Hz to 2 kHz than I would have expected. 6-10 dB (I'm basing this on mental smoothing, as there are some smaller and larger differences at spot freqs) is nothing to sneeze at but I would have expected at least 20 dB across most of the range.

The upward tilt in CD noise from ~18-20 kHz is interesting too. I wonder if this is responsible for reports of graininess of that medium, even though FR is flat in digital?

Everything in the digital file ends at 22 kHz as expected, but I'm surprised to see vinyl carrying on past 40 kHz. Was that a moving coil or moving magnet cartridge?

Thank you again for posting this. It raises as many questions as it solves, as all good science should!

The uptilt is in this CD, but not edemnic to CD. I'm pretty sure it is some noise shaped dither. I seem to recall Wilma Cozart (who oversaw this project) used some dither when sampling the tapes. This one was from tape I believe. I suppose I could see if the profile is any different on those using 35 mm film.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Yeah, that's this.

45 RPM

1st Track, side A

So it's probably quite a bit better in some ways than a regular LP.

If you have a 33 1/3 you'd like to make available I'd try that.

Funny, I once had a nice original copy of that from the early 1960's.

 

[watchnerd]

If you have a 33 1/3 you'd like to make available I'd try that.

Funny, I once had a nice original copy of that from the early 1960's.

https://www.discogs.com/user/watchnerd/collection?search=getz

There is a 2007 Speakers Corner 33 1/3 reissue there.

 

[ahofer]

I'm feeling like the S/N discussion deserves its own thread.

 

[GrimSurfer]

I'm feeling like the S/N discussion deserves its own thread.

Yeah, probably. Some of @Blumlein 88 and @watchnerd's work could be put onto a sticky or captured in a technical piece for the site too.

While the noise floor of LP is likely well above the noise floor of the recording on anything that is made post-WW II (not so sure about 1920s-1930s material), on most of my LPs the lead-in groove sounds noisier than the intra-track grooves by far.

I don't know if it's just the cartridge settling down, or if there is some difference in the actual cutting / stamping.

Re: cartridge settling down. Yeah, I was thinking that, which was why I was wondering about the cartridge type. There would be a lot of inertia after a needle drop either way.

Here is a modern BIS all digital recording vs the LP. LP in red and BIS in green. Much larger difference here.
View attachment 36905

Ok. This is closer to what I was originally expecting. There's a solid 20 dB difference from 1 kHz on.

 

[ahofer]

At face value, this audio hobby is pretty much the opposite of universally-appealing. The general public finds this hobby puzzling at best and absolutely laughable at worst. The common perception of audiophiles is not a positive one.

....

Your date may not understand or care about the weird-looking tube amplifier next to your record player and stack of curated 45s, but that little setup says something about you.

Yes, I think that's an odd one. But there are other examples, like wine, where being a bec fin can be off-putting. I haven't seen a woman who thought a big honking watch was attractive, but what it said about the wearer...that's another matter.

Even if your date thinks your audio talk is nerdy, he/she knows you are willing to spend money on bling. So a) you have it and b) maybe some of that useless bling will be bought for her/him. After all, plenty of old, fat, smelly, narcissistic...millionaires find very hot mates. Money, and conspicuous use of money, can enhance attraction. And it also can signal status (between males, generally), which also...enhances attraction and serves other evolutionary purposes.

 

[GrimSurfer]

Yes, I think that's an odd one. But there are other examples, like wine, where being a bec fin can be off-putting. I haven't seen a woman who thought a big honking watch was attractive, but what it said about the wearer...that's another matter.

Even if your date thinks your audio talk is nerdy, he/she knows you are willing to spend money on bling. So a) you have it and b) maybe some of that useless bling will be bought for her/him. After all, plenty of old, fat, smelly, narcissistic...millionaires find very hot mates. Money, and conspicuous use of money, can enhance attraction. And it also can signal status (between males, generally), which also...enhances attraction and serves other evolutionary purposes.

LOL. It works that way on Jersey Shore and the Kardasians anyway. And we know that's moving human evolution back towards the La Brea tar pit.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Yes, I think that's an odd one. But there are other examples, like wine, where being a bec fin can be off-putting. I haven't seen a woman who thought a big honking watch was attractive, but what it said about the wearer...that's another matter.

Even if your date thinks your audio talk is nerdy, he/she knows you are willing to spend money on bling. So a) you have it and b) maybe some of that useless bling will be bought for her/him. After all, plenty of old, fat, smelly, narcissistic...millionaires find very hot mates. Money, and conspicuous use of money, can enhance attraction. And it also can signal status (between males, generally), which also...enhances attraction and serves other evolutionary purposes.

Reminds me of going with a friend to look at a high performance expensive sports car. The owner was mid 30's. The wife who answered the door was a highly attractive gal in her early 20's. She told us, while we waited on her husband to show up, "I hope you buy that car. I hate that car. It is so stupid I can't wait for him to sell it." My friend said he thought she might hate it, but him having it is probably what she noticed, and she wanted it gone so other women wouldn't know how much money he had for such frivolity.

 

[yikky900]

Nothing worse than someone how buys high end assuming it must be good. Then lashes out when mesures bad or that its only <5% than any good gear for £300. But then again the are people who are happy with high end grados and sound good despite them measuring badly.

Like i know a redditor who daily cans is the Grado GS3000e and loved them easily over the HD800S/Utopia.

 

[watchnerd]

Re: cartridge settling down. Yeah, I was thinking that, which was why I was wondering about the cartridge type. There would be a lot of inertia after a needle drop either way.

The cartridge used was an AT33EV.

It's not particularly exotic, having a nude elliptical stylus, .3 mV LOMC, 10 ohms internal impedance. The cartridge body / style has been around since the late 1980s, I believe.

 

[GrimSurfer]

The cartridge used was an AT33EV.

It's not particularly exotic, having a nude elliptical stylus, .3 mV LOMC, 10 ohms internal impedance. The cartridge body / style has been around since the late 1980s, I believe.

Good quality moving coil. So likely inertia is as well managed as these things go in the cartridge world.

 

[scott wurcer]

I'm feeling like the S/N discussion deserves its own thread.

That would be nice, I've spent literally 100's of hours on this and have accumulated many test LP's and have my own set of opinions some of which go against the grain. IME you can rip LP's at 44.1/16 but you can not be sloppy about setting the headroom. If you want to measure the noise floor you really should use a guaranteed silent track from a test LP. I have several vintage LP's where the tape hiss cutting in is easily audible.

 

[watchnerd]

Good quality moving coil. So likely inertia is as well managed as these things go in the cartridge world.

"Good quality", I'd agree.

But not top tier.

My Nagaoka MP-500 MM has a "better" cantilever (boron), and a "more advanced" stylus (line contact). But it's MM, so what it gains in the better cantilever / better stylus department, it loses with higher motor mass.

[NOTE: DEBATABLE! The Nagaoka MP-500 is moving iron, which some say has moving mass closer to MC than MM]

The next level AT33SA combines the same motor with a boron cant and Shibata stylus.