How About Creating a Modern Cassette Player?

[MaxwellsEq]

I’ve always wondered what the f*ck they did back then, if I as a teen recorded a vinyl to tape it sounded better than the corresponding factory made tapes , they always sucked and sounded terrible

They were copied at high speed. I used to fix a certain high-speed tape copier. When in perfect condition and setup, the frequency response was much less than a normal recorder and phase was poor. After a few days the performance was worse. A domestic cassette recorded at home was barely HiFi a prerecorded cassette was truly ****

 

[pollock0424]

Are there any measurements to show that Vinyl is better than a cassette (recorded at regular speed) ?

 

[mhardy6647]

And since tapes are also much cheaper to manufacture (about 4-10 times cheaper), they are a much better merch option for bands.

"[about 4-10 times]...cheaper to manufacture" than what? CDs? LPs?

Hard to believe, actually, in either case, at least at current prices for tape. No idea how easy or hard it is to find high speed duplicators in good working order or what the hourly cost of accessing one is, either.

 

[pollock0424]

They were copied at high speed. I used to fix a certain high-speed tape copier. When in perfect condition and setup, the frequency response was much less than a normal recorder and phase was poor. After a few days the performance was worse. A domestic cassette recorded at home was barely HiFi a prerecorded cassette was truly ****

And many factors such as..

1. Dolby level calibration
2. Azimuth and Head height (you only have a few minutes and less than 0.15mm error margins for azimuth and head height).
3. Sometimes some decks didn't have properly implemented IEC EQ curve also..

It was death by thousand cuts for bulk made pre-recorded cassettes.

 

[EJ3]

I think the tapes also give that retro vibe, even though it may be a false retro, as in; none of the people who lived the era long for tapes, but younger people do.

Either way Cassettes have a lot of customisation options.

Cassette booklets can be folded 4 times, giving you 8 sides (of which 1 is the front cover) for artwork and lyrics. The tape cassette can also be printed or cool transparent plastic.

And since tapes are also much cheaper to manufacture (about 4-10 times cheaper), they are a much better merch option for bands.

I do not remember anyone having prerecorded tapes that they claimed to have bought. Bu most of us had a copy of our vinyl on cassette to take out in the boat/car, take to freinds, etc.
Also of local bands that I worked with, (the 60 piece local community band that does Hollywood Show Tunes and much "Classical" pop & jazz), family events, myself and other DJ's at radio stations, etc.
I have a tremendous amount of cassette stuff that I want to transfer to CD or digital.
As I have already done with my home movies from 1929-1965.

 

[Smaestro]

"[about 4-10 times]...cheaper to manufacture" than what? CDs? LPs?

LP’s, in response to the post I quoted.

Hard to believe, actually, in either case, at least at current prices for tape. No idea how easy or hard it is to find high speed duplicators in good working order or what the hourly cost of accessing one is, either.

I need to clarify that I was talking about merch for indie (financially, not the genre) bands, in the context of wanting to give their audience a fun memory. The startup costs of vinyl price it out of that market compared to tape.

Prices, at least for The Netherlands, if you pick the plain simple options (cover print for LP, single sheet booklet for tape, both 44min runtime total)

LP: roughly €3,80 per piece
Tape: roughly €2,80 per piece
If you print 1000 pieces.

However, printing (and selling) 1000 is unrealistic for small band merch. Looking at prices for 100 pieces:
LP: roughly €20 per piece
Tape: roughly €3,50 per piece

But many vinyl pressers won’t even press under 250 or even 500 items, whereas prerecorded tape can be bought at a minimum batch of 25.

 

[Smaestro]

I do not remember anyone having prerecorded tapes that they claimed to have bought. Bu most of us had a copy of our vinyl on cassette to take out in the boat/car, take to freinds, etc.
Also of local bands that I worked with, (the 60 piece local community band that does Hollywood Show Tunes and much "Classical" pop & jazz), family events, myself and other DJ's at radio stations, etc.
I have a tremendous amount of cassette stuff that I want to transfer to CD or digital.
As I have already done with my home movies from 1929-1965.

That surprises me. I have a number of relatives who have stacks of cases full of officially published tapes. Hundreds each, still. They also have a large vinyl and cd collection. Tape was just the main medium for a while for them.

I also remember walking in music stores as a kid when CD was just new. Tape was everywhere, CD wasn’t yet. I bought Metallica’s Black Album on tape, first music I ever bought. Are you saying where you lived they didn’t have published tape in record stores, or that people didn’t buy it?

 

[pollock0424]

Dire Straits, BIA sounds amazing for a pre-recorded cassette. MJ Thriller is okay and Lennon's Shaved Fish is above average.

Rage sounds pretty good too, they pegged it..

 

[EJ3]

That surprises me. I have a number of relatives who have stacks of cases full of officially published tapes. Hundreds each, still. They also have a large vinyl and cd collection. Tape was just the main medium for a while for them.

I also remember walking in music stores as a kid when CD was just new. Tape was everywhere, CD wasn’t yet. I bought Metallica’s Black Album on tape, first music I ever bought. Are you saying where you lived they didn’t have published tape in record stores, or that people didn’t buy it?

Few people bought it.
Perhaps we were a niche market.
CD's, when they came out, sold very well.
I had a few factory recorded cassettes but have no idea of how I came to have them. I, like most people I knew then, did not buy any.

 

[mhardy6647]

There are a few very good sounding prerecorded (commercial) cassettes here. They are mostly (if not all-ly) not massmarket labels or titles.
I'll share an example or two anon.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

Are you saying where you lived they didn’t have published tape in record stores, or that people didn’t buy it?

If you cared about sound in the 70s and early 80s you bought LPs. Simply everybody knew about the poor quality of cassette for prerecorded mass market music. Nobody disputed this at that time.

 

[JeremyFife]

You can buy a well made player (vintage, or if someone makes one now). You can buy higher quality tapes (assuming someone actually makes one) and then you can make your own - poor - copies of vinyl or digital sources.
All fine, all fun.

Until labels release well recorded music on high quality tapes (and they don't, although there's probably an exception somewhere) then that's all you have.

Not knocking tape for fun and nostalgia, I just genuinely don't see a place for it in hifi.

Still unaccountably grumpy about tape... I clearly have unresolved childhood issues

 

[MaxwellsEq]

You can buy a well made player (vintage, or if someone makes one now). You can buy higher quality tapes (assuming someone actually makes one) and then you can make your own - poor - copies of vinyl or digital sources.
All fine, all fun.

Until labels release well recorded music on high quality tapes (and they don't, although there's probably an exception somewhere) then that's all you have.

Not knocking tape for fun and nostalgia, I just genuinely don't see a place for it in hifi.

Still unaccountably grumpy about tape... I clearly have unresolved childhood issues

For me it's just that I worked with 1/4" up to 2" mastertape and cassette was just useless in comparison.

 

[pollock0424]

I know someone in Bulgaria who modified a Nakamichi BX 300 to 2x speed and 1/2 track. It even supports metal tape recording and the frequency response, distortion (IM and THD), W&F, SNR beat most Openreel machines. I am a serious tapehead and an active member on tapeheads forum.

So a 100min cassette is about 25mins for that machine.

Best part about tapeheads is that many of the members are technical and none of the audiofile nonsense will fly there.. you'll get a good refresher on your Physics (EM ) and Electronics.

 

[mhardy6647]

If you cared about sound in the 70s and early 80s you bought LPs. Simply everybody knew about the poor quality of cassette for prerecorded mass market music. Nobody disputed this at that time.

Direct to disk or, at least, half-speed (re)mastered ones, at that!

That's what I call music! Makes Jazz at the Pawnshop sound like Miles Davis.

 

[EJ3]

You can buy a well made player (vintage, or if someone makes one now). You can buy higher quality tapes (assuming someone actually makes one) and then you can make your own - poor - copies of vinyl or digital sources.
All fine, all fun.

Until labels release well recorded music on high quality tapes (and they don't, although there's probably an exception somewhere) then that's all you have.

Not knocking tape for fun and nostalgia, I just genuinely don't see a place for it in hifi.

Still unaccountably grumpy about tape... I clearly have unresolved childhood issues

I think that the
MUSIC INDUSTRY MOGULS trying to convince people that the MUSIC INDUSTRIES pre-recorded tapes where any good compared to what we could do with a very good to great cassette deck recording from a pristine LP just pissed many people off about the mass produced prerecorded tapes.
I could make my own tapes for the boat, cars (& the Radio Flyer wagon that we mounted a car stereo on) to haul around to islands (we even loaded 1 or 2 small "motorcycles" [Honda QA50, Honda SL70]) into the 15 foot boat with an 80 HP Johnson when I was 13-14 to take with us & our girlfriends almost every weekend). Quality "home made" cassette tapes were certainly "good enough" for those applications.
I never knew someone that had a car or boat (still don't [and would not intentionally buy one that quiet {yep, I'm afraid that someone paying attention to their cell phone, won't hear my car and will step off a curb in front of me]}) that was/is quiet enough that digital audio makes a difference (unless the vehicle is parked an is off).
CD players (and even more so, digital audio) in these vehicles (even the big tired Radio Flyer wagon) just made them less susceptible to debris (and overall somewhat more convenient).
As to sound quality, cassette was (& still is) good enough for those applications.
But certain cassette decks & recordings could also be "good enough" for people's homes.
That depends on the noise floor of where you live. HINT: if you see more people daily on horseback than in a car/truck, you're probably in a place with a low enough noise floor to make a difference.
Otherwise, it's likely double or triple paned windows & a lot of expense to get to that point.
In NO WAY am I saying cassette was a superior format, just that it was/is "good enough" for certain scenarios.
& I remember a lot of "GREAT TIMES" involving them.

 

[Soandso]

Could have happened to anyone -

 

[Randyman...]

That surprises me. I have a number of relatives who have stacks of cases full of officially published tapes. Hundreds each, still. They also have a large vinyl and cd collection. Tape was just the main medium for a while for them.

I also remember walking in music stores as a kid when CD was just new. Tape was everywhere, CD wasn’t yet. I bought Metallica’s Black Album on tape, first music I ever bought. Are you saying where you lived they didn’t have published tape in record stores, or that people didn’t buy it?

Same. I'm 50, and when I was a kid, Cassettes were the rage! Walkmans, dual-well cassette decks and all that jazz.

The record stores basically had all the releases available on LP and Cassette at that time. I probably purchased just as many commercial cassettes as LP's - if not more cassettes.

My older brother's friend gave me an 8-track player and some tapes (Rush's Exit Stage Left for one!!!) - but by then you couldn't even find commercial 8-tracks in the stores - they were all replaced with racks and racks of cassettes. I still have a handful of cassette tapes in a drawer somewhere, but my Sony deck is all gooped-up and won't even drive....

 

[Joe Smith]

It's simple to me: if vinyl is still ok, then cassette tape is still ok. Played on a good deck, a well-made self-recorded tape or a mass market tape made with good tape and Dolby and HX Pro...still sounds quite, quite good. When you allow for the tricky aspects of LP playback...both are limited mediums that can still be satisfying as physical media.

I always lusted after reel to reel, but could never justify it...I never lusted after 8 Track...for me, cassettes hit the sweet spot for home taping.

 

[EJ3]

It's simple to me: if vinyl is still ok, then cassette tape is still ok. Played on a good deck, a well-made self-recorded tape or a mass market tape made with good tape and Dolby and HX Pro...still sounds quite, quite good. When you allow for the tricky aspects of LP playback...both are limited mediums that can still be satisfying as physical media.

I always lusted after reel to reel, but could never justify it...I never lusted after 8 Track...for me, cassettes hit the sweet spot for home taping.

Everyone I knew (Yes, they all had pretty good take decks) back then: taped their own for the car, boat or to take with them to friends homes.