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How a cartridge works

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TG1

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Nothing I know of is "rigid" over the whole range of audible frequencies.
A "rigid" arm may have its first resonance at 2 to 3kHz rather than 200 Hz, so different, not better. Also the normal arm will be decoupled from the plinth at around 2x its natural frequency 400Hz or so whereas the "rigid" one will still be coupling the plinth vibrations to the cartridge body at 4 to 6 kHz, so probably worse in terms of colouration.
Mats do change resonance but are likely to move it a bit or damp it a bit.
In the end record players are full of resonances and it is so complex that predicting the effect requires complex analysis.
It is yet another case of "they that say don't know and those that know don't say". I am very used to this from my line of work.
Sounds like you are not scientifically minded anyway, otherwise you would have been riveted during class not playing cards...

Long time ago, and for that period I switched off from everything, not just science. I only developed intellectual curiosity fairly late in life.
However, I'd say you were correct in that assumption since it costs me some effort to grasp concepts I imagine come easier to others. I've realised a proper understanding is going be beyond me, but I would settle for understanding sufficient to find my way around the gear and maybe avoid spending money uselessly.
After this thread has finished I will be staying off the forums because I recognise they are for people with a common frame of reference, which I obviously do not have access to. Nevertheless, it is an interesting subject and I'm grateful to those who have shared some of their knowledge.
 

Tom C

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I think this is starting to get off topic. But some say mats matter. We know from physics that the speed of sound differs in different materials (e.g., faster through water vs. air), and that the angle of travel changes when going around the edges of physical objects, and when going from one medium to another (like ultrasound in the body that goes though fluid in the bladder to soft tissue then to air in the intestine). So if the record sits on an aluminum platter, the behavior of incident vibrations coming from the action of the pickup and going through the record will differ as compared to a glass or Delrin platter. Since the speed of sound in vinyl, Delrin and acrylic are similar, some believe one of those three materials would be best choices for making a platter or a platter mat. The theory is that the vibrations would "drain away," rather than be reflected back to the cartridge and tonearm. Some prefer leather or cork mats, others say no mat and put the record directly on a metal platter with some type of hold down.
In practice, my experience is that I am unable to hear much difference between different mat materials. I suspect this may be because no matter what you do, there is going to be a layer of air between the record and whatever it is sitting directly on, be it cork mat or glass platter, or what have you. And the speed of sound through air is drastically slower than through any solid (aluminum), amorphous solid (glass), or liquid. For a sound wave, hitting an interface between solid and room air is like a car hitting a brick wall. There is severe scatter and back reflection, and almost zero through propagation.
Using a vacuum hold down helps pull the warp out of a record, but won't provide perfect acoustic coupling. The vacuum won't be perfect, and there will always be at least some air trapped in the record grooves of the side that is facing down toward the platter. Not only that, but vacuum actually makes the problem worse, since sound cannot travel at all through a vacuum. In space, no one can hear you scream, because in a perfect vacuum the speed of sound is exactly zero.
Mats help with slip between the record and the platter, provide a nonabrasive surface to place the record on, and should add at least a little damping for the platter. But I am not yet convinced they change or improve the fidelity of playback.
 

Tom C

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By the way, there are still companies that do scientific research in these areas. I've seen recent work in accelerometer studies from VPI (their turntables cost $1,000 to $20,000) and Kuzma ($3,500 to $40,000), where they make their measurements available to the public. Wilson Benesch has a project for a new turntable design they announced at Munich High End this year, that they have been working on for some time. They engaged a French laboratory to help with research and development capabilities that they did not have in house. Like anechoic chambers and Spin-O-Rama, that costs big money. As you might expect, the new turntable will have a sky high price tag; I'm guessing the $100,000 plus range. But the prototype they displayed was spectacular, gorgeous of form and sophisticated of style.
 

sergeauckland

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Long time ago, and for that period I switched off from everything, not just science. I only developed intellectual curiosity fairly late in life.
However, I'd say you were correct in that assumption since it costs me some effort to grasp concepts I imagine come easier to others. I've realised a proper understanding is going be beyond me, but I would settle for understanding sufficient to find my way around the gear and maybe avoid spending money uselessly.
After this thread has finished I will be staying off the forums because I recognise they are for people with a common frame of reference, which I obviously do not have access to. Nevertheless, it is an interesting subject and I'm grateful to those who have shared some of their knowledge.
I would stick around. If you do want to learn, then this is the place to do it. There are a LOT of people on here to really do understand this stuff AND can explain it in a way that you don't need an advanced degree to understand.


S
 

Frank Dernie

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By the way, there are still companies that do scientific research in these areas. I've seen recent work in accelerometer studies from VPI (their turntables cost $1,000 to $20,000) and Kuzma ($3,500 to $40,000), where they make their measurements available to the public. Wilson Benesch has a project for a new turntable design they announced at Munich High End this year, that they have been working on for some time. They engaged a French laboratory to help with research and development capabilities that they did not have in house. Like anechoic chambers and Spin-O-Rama, that costs big money. As you might expect, the new turntable will have a sky high price tag; I'm guessing the $100,000 plus range. But the prototype they displayed was spectacular, gorgeous of form and sophisticated of style.
Yes but it is bonkers.
A turntable designed using good understanding of dynamics need not be very expensive.
Much as I like stuff to be nice looking the turntable market is almost exclusively fashion and styling with a few engineering buzz words which almost always mean nothing.
This looks like a sensible bit of engineering to me and it is as expensive as will be needed to manufacture but not stark staring bonkers.
http://puresound.info/id9.html
 

Tom C

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So, how about a little on topic?
A cartridge is a small electrical generator, which is a device for transforming mechanical energy into electrical energy. It was observed during experimentation in the 1800's that when a wire moves through a magnetic field, an electrical current is generated in the wire. When the movement stops, the current stops. Generators work by placing wires and magnets next to each other and moving one or the other in some type of rotary or back and forth motion. A generator in a hydroelectric power plant produces electrical power when its turbine is turned by the flow of water. A phonograph cartridge produces a tiny bit of power (which is another way of saying there is current and voltage) when its stylus vibrates (moves back and forth) through the record groove.
If you and I are in a room speaking to each other, your vocal cords vibrate as the air you exhale through your windpipe passes by them. The vibrating vocal cords disturb the air in a particular pattern, which I perceive as speech. The molecules of air exiting your mouth bump into the molecules of air that are in the room, setting them into motion. Those molecules then start travelling, and bump into others next to them, and so on. In this way, sound travels (or is propagated) through air. Eventually, the air sitting next to my eardrum is disturbed, pushing on my eardrum, and I perceive the sound of your voice.
The first phonographs copied the eardrum, but it's called a diaphragm. Just another word for the same thing. A diaphragm is a thin sheet stretched on a frame, like a canvas on a painting, but diaphragms are usually round and dome shaped. When an object is said to be stiff or rigid, it means that the object resists being deformed, and when it is deformed, it tends to go back to its original shape and position. Pliable is the opposite of stiff. If a thin membrane of a pliable material is mounted on a frame and placed under tension, its stiffness is increased. So, of a membrane under tension is moved from its rest position by, say, a sound wave hitting it, it tends to return to its rest position. Hit it with another sound impulse, and it is deflected again, then returns to rest position. Keep repeating this in rapid succession, and a continuous vibration is set up. Thomas Edison found that if he connected a diaphragm to a needle, when the diaphragm was put in motion by a sound wave, the diaphragm would push on the needle and the needle would vibrate. He coated a cardboard tube with a layer of wax. He put the wax coated tube on a mechanical roller and started it turning. He then placed the needle (connected to the diaphragm) in contact with the wax on the tube, allowing the needle to cut a groove into the wax. Without sound, the diaphragm didn't vibrate, and the groove was a straight, V shaped trough with smooth, straight sides. But if sound was present, the diaphragm would vibrate, which would push on and wiggle the needle as the wax tube spun, making a groove with a curvy path. The wax cylinder was then sold to a buyer who had a reproducer at home. The reproducer had a device to mount the cylinder on and spin it, and it had a needle connected to a diaphragm. When the reproducer needle was placed on the wax cylinder, the groove in the wax caught the needle. The needle followed the curvy groove was moved back and forth in a vibratory motion, and pushed on the diaphragm connected to the needle. The diaphragm pushed on the air in the listener's room, and created a sound wave.
That's how it was for decades. Purely mechanical/acoustic. A guy named Berliner invented the disc format (among other impressive innovations), but it worked on the same basic principles. Instead of a wax coated paper cylinder, he used a disc made of rubber. Eventually, a composite of shellac with other materials become the most common way to make discs. In the mid 1920's, people started using microphones connected to tube amps to capture the sound, which required modifications to the method. This method converts the mechanical energy of a sound wave into electrical energy. Microphones and phono cartridges can both be called pickups because they both convert mechanical energy into electricity, even though they differ mechanically. The amp was then connected to a motor. A motor works on the same principles as a generator, but in reverse. So, a motor converts electrical energy into mechanical energy. The microphone is connected to an amp, the amp to a motor, and the motor to a cutting needle (or cutter, for short). Also, they would take a metal platter and coat the platter with acetate. Acetate is soft but moldable, much like wax. Later, lacquer was used instead of acetate, and lacquer is still used to this day. Anyway, the cutter was placed into the acetate on the spinning platter. During recording (sound capture), the microphone detected the sound, converted it to electricity, the electricity power was boosted by the amp to a level sufficient to drive the cutter motor, the motor wiggled the cutter, the cutter sliced a curvy groove into the acetate. While all of that was a significant change from the past, the play back machines didn't change right away. They didn't have to. The technology was backwards compatible, and electrically recorded discs could be played on an acoustic machine. Before 1930 though, electrical reproducers became available for home use. Which required the use of cartridges working on principles similar to what we use today.
In a contemporary (present day) turntable, the stylus vibrates as it rides in the groove of a record spun by the platter. As it rides, the stylus vibrates back and forth. The stylus is connected to a either a magnet that moves past a coil, or a coil that moves past a magnet. There is a third type, called moving iron, where the stylus is connected to a very small piece of iron that is then positioned between a magnet and coil inside the cartridge body, but the physics are the same (there are still other types that work on somewhat different principles, but they're less common). The result is that current and voltage are generated by the cartridge, which is passed then to a special equalizer called a phono stage (or phono corrector, or RIAA corrector), then to an amp, then speakers. The cartridge generates electricity from motion. The motion is created by the record groove wiggling the stylus. If the record isn't spinning, the stylus just sits there, and no electrical output from the cartridge is generated. Since the mechanical energy for the groove-to-stylus motion comes from the fact that the record is spinning, the source of the mechanical energy must be the turntable motor. In effect, the turntable converts the mechanical energy of its motor to the electrical energy of the stylus output.
 

Tom C

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Yes but it is bonkers.
A turntable designed using good understanding of dynamics need not be very expensive.
Much as I like stuff to be nice looking the turntable market is almost exclusively fashion and styling with a few engineering buzz words which almost always mean nothing.
This looks like a sensible bit of engineering to me and it is as expensive as will be needed to manufacture but not stark staring bonkers.
http://puresound.info/id9.html
For real. A turntable that costs more than a hand built imported luxury car makes no sense. But I guess celebrities and titans of industry need something to spend their money on.
Those turntables you linked to are pretty cool. I haven't seen them before.
For function and value, I think the best turntable I've ever actually owned is the Technics SL-1200GR. Less than $2,000 US and sounds super good.
 
OP
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TG1

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So, how about a little on topic?
A cartridge is a small electrical generator, which is a device for transforming mechanical energy into electrical energy. It was observed during experimentation in the 1800's that when a wire moves through a magnetic field, an electrical current is generated in the wire. When the movement stops, the current stops. Generators work by placing wires and magnets next to each other and moving one or the other in some type of rotary or back and forth motion. A generator in a hydroelectric power plant produces electrical power when its turbine is turned by the flow of water. A phonograph cartridge produces a tiny bit of power (which is another way of saying there is current and voltage) when its stylus vibrates (moves back and forth) through the record groove.
If you and I are in a room speaking to each other, your vocal cords vibrate as the air you exhale through your windpipe passes by them. The vibrating vocal cords disturb the air in a particular pattern, which I perceive as speech. The molecules of air exiting your mouth bump into the molecules of air that are in the room, setting them into motion. Those molecules then start travelling, and bump into others next to them, and so on. In this way, sound travels (or is propagated) through air. Eventually, the air sitting next to my eardrum is disturbed, pushing on my eardrum, and I perceive the sound of your voice.
The first phonographs copied the eardrum, but it's called a diaphragm. Just another word for the same thing. A diaphragm is a thin sheet stretched on a frame, like a canvas on a painting, but diaphragms are usually round and dome shaped. When an object is said to be stiff or rigid, it means that the object resists being deformed, and when it is deformed, it tends to go back to its original shape and position. Pliable is the opposite of stiff. If a thin membrane of a pliable material is mounted on a frame and placed under tension, its stiffness is increased. So, of a membrane under tension is moved from its rest position by, say, a sound wave hitting it, it tends to return to its rest position. Hit it with another sound impulse, and it is deflected again, then returns to rest position. Keep repeating this in rapid succession, and a continuous vibration is set up. Thomas Edison found that if he connected a diaphragm to a needle, when the diaphragm was put in motion by a sound wave, the diaphragm would push on the needle and the needle would vibrate. He coated a cardboard tube with a layer of wax. He put the wax coated tube on a mechanical roller and started it turning. He then placed the needle (connected to the diaphragm) in contact with the wax on the tube, allowing the needle to cut a groove into the wax. Without sound, the diaphragm didn't vibrate, and the groove was a straight, V shaped trough with smooth, straight sides. But if sound was present, the diaphragm would vibrate, which would push on and wiggle the needle as the wax tube spun, making a groove with a curvy path. The wax cylinder was then sold to a buyer who had a reproducer at home. The reproducer had a device to mount the cylinder on and spin it, and it had a needle connected to a diaphragm. When the reproducer needle was placed on the wax cylinder, the groove in the wax caught the needle. The needle followed the curvy groove was moved back and forth in a vibratory motion, and pushed on the diaphragm connected to the needle. The diaphragm pushed on the air in the listener's room, and created a sound wave.
That's how it was for decades. Purely mechanical/acoustic. A guy named Berliner invented the disc format (among other impressive innovations), but it worked on the same basic principles. Instead of a wax coated paper cylinder, he used a disc made of rubber. Eventually, a composite of shellac with other materials become the most common way to make discs. In the mid 1920's, people started using microphones connected to tube amps to capture the sound, which required modifications to the method. This method converts the mechanical energy of a sound wave into electrical energy. Microphones and phono cartridges can both be called pickups because they both convert mechanical energy into electricity, even though they differ mechanically. The amp was then connected to a motor. A motor works on the same principles as a generator, but in reverse. So, a motor converts electrical energy into mechanical energy. The microphone is connected to an amp, the amp to a motor, and the motor to a cutting needle (or cutter, for short). Also, they would take a metal platter and coat the platter with acetate. Acetate is soft but moldable, much like wax. Later, lacquer was used instead of acetate, and lacquer is still used to this day. Anyway, the cutter was placed into the acetate on the spinning platter. During recording (sound capture), the microphone detected the sound, converted it to electricity, the electricity power was boosted by the amp to a level sufficient to drive the cutter motor, the motor wiggled the cutter, the cutter sliced a curvy groove into the acetate. While all of that was a significant change from the past, the play back machines didn't change right away. They didn't have to. The technology was backwards compatible, and electrically recorded discs could be played on an acoustic machine. Before 1930 though, electrical reproducers became available for home use. Which required the use of cartridges working on principles similar to what we use today.
In a contemporary (present day) turntable, the stylus vibrates as it rides in the groove of a record spun by the platter. As it rides, the stylus vibrates back and forth. The stylus is connected to a either a magnet that moves past a coil, or a coil that moves past a magnet. There is a third type, called moving iron, where the stylus is connected to a very small piece of iron that is then positioned between a magnet and coil inside the cartridge body, but the physics are the same (there are still other types that work on somewhat different principles, but they're less common). The result is that current and voltage are generated by the cartridge, which is passed then to a special equalizer called a phono stage (or phono corrector, or RIAA corrector), then to an amp, then speakers. The cartridge generates electricity from motion. The motion is created by the record groove wiggling the stylus. If the record isn't spinning, the stylus just sits there, and no electrical output from the cartridge is generated. Since the mechanical energy for the groove-to-stylus motion comes from the fact that the record is spinning, the source of the mechanical energy must be the turntable motor. In effect, the turntable converts the mechanical energy of its motor to the electrical energy of the stylus output.

Good grief that was expansive - thanks very much. Interesting that none of the explanation is diminishing the mystery of this for me. What I find extraordinary is that so much of the qualitative element remains intact and is not lost in translation. I suppose the wave form is different if exactly the same note is played by first a bored musician and then a thoroughly engaged one. It is certainly possible to hear the difference. It can't be imagination either because the differences can be agreed upon by several listeners.
 

Frank Dernie

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I suppose the wave form is different if exactly the same note is played by first a bored musician and then a thoroughly engaged one. It is certainly possible to hear the difference. It can't be imagination either because the differences can be agreed upon by several listeners.
Yes, it certainly is. Both the way the instrumen is played and the rubato -subtle manipulation of tempo- is very obvious in the different way of playing a note on the waveform.
The microphone picks it up no problem and it stays in the recording as far as the speakers. Maybe the waveform is slightly altered by distortion, but the rubato would only be altered by speed fluctuation - not impossible with a record player.
 
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