Horns - Necessary to complete the Audiophile Journey?

[Bjorn]

Klipsch best horn speaker is the 2-way Jubilee with a quality beryllium driver and active crossover. This speaker was meant to be Klipsch flag ship speaker which has much lower distortion and better directivity compared to their Klipschorn. But when Paul Klipsch passed away, Klipsch stopped selling it to home market and made it cinema speaker instead. Obviously for commercial reasons since the Jubilee is too big for most people to have in their home.

The Jubilee will extend it's directivity lower in frequency with corner placement, making the side walls a lengthening of the horn.

But the 2-way Jubilee can still be purchased if you ask about it. However, the K402 top horn does have it flaws with rooms of improvements. I know since I had the horn and used it as a reference when developing a new. And the Jubilee bass bin really should have been using only one driver instead of two (like La Scala). The two drivers superimpose on each other. But it's still a great speaker.

 

[Bjorn]

I thought so too regarding "taste" but a more careful observation has produced the opposite results. "Taste" comes from the gut not understanding and if people are into immersiveness, envelopment and soundstage (the latest audiophile craze) then objective arguments won't make them change their opinion. Well perhaps a few people here at ASR may respond well to the right arguments.

I guess it's good then that I'm also working on speakers with something close to 180° horizontal directivity
But personally I don't really believe that most necessarily want or prefer wide dispersion.

 

[KSTR]

Concentric horns like the Danley's often do something in normal rooms that other speakers will only do under anechoic conditions and then typically only if they are concetric as well, and that is project a dry (reverb-less) sound event way in front of the speakers, sometimes perceived as very close to the listener, like 1..2m (3..6ft) or so, and additionally it almost impossible to develop a feeling how far the speakers are actually away from the listener when listening with closed eyes, as well as one cannot judge their size. Everthing just simply scales with playback level.
That leads to the notion that they produce a much more like "I am there" experience rather than the "they are here" projection that, for example, omnis and dipoles have in a more reverberant room. The better, "effortless" dynamics support this perception even more.
The soundstage "size" in any direction is extremely dependant on what is coded into the recording as there is little additional reflections and reverberation from the room to help out. It can be as 3D as it ever gets as well as boringly flat. But one can always use a bit of added early reflections and reverb to the source material if the presentation is overly dry with some recordings, adding your own personal flavor of room sound.

 

[tuga]

Does it make them sound truer to the original? Just curious as this is exactly my experience with horns. The sound stage they produce is somewhat flat. I tried to experiment with room placement but it didn't make whole lot of difference.

I would venture that side-wall reflections are a distortion of the transduced signal...

 

[tuga]

The soundstage "size" in any direction is extremely dependant on what is coded into the recording as there is little additional reflections and reverberation from the room to help out. It can be as 3D as it ever gets as well as boringly flat. But one can always use a bit of added early reflections and reverb to the source material if the presentation is overly dry with some recordings, adding your own personal flavor of room sound.

As with any type of euphonic colouration, you're hardly ever able to adjust its intensity according to the needs of each particular recording thus tinting everything indiscriminately.
It may be possible I presume to have adjustable side-wall treatment (@Bjorn ?) but not easy nor practical.

 

[Bjorn]

I would venture that side-wall reflections are a distortion of the transduced signal...

Agree. Absolutely. Even if the directivity is constant which certianly help to minimize the coloration, high gain specular reflections still effect accuracy in regards to clarity, intelligbillity, tonaliy to some degree depending on surfaces, and localization.

Adjustable side wall treatment is possible. The most practical solution would be something like the RPG Biffusor that can be rotated with a bracket (see pictures) or the RPG Acoustic Screen AB version with absorption one one side and BAD (hybrid diffusion/absorption) on the other side. RPG also use to have triangular device with absorption on one side, diffusion on one and reflective panel on one. They may still offer it as custom product.

 

[tuga]

Horns are terrific as long as they are very big, crossover is low, the directivity is constant, and active crossover is a definitive advantage. If the horn is rather small, I think several other speakers designs are better.

Below is a rendering of the 2-way horn I'm working on. A separated additional subwoofer (preferably horn loaded) is needed. The directivity is expectional uniform. But yeah, it's huge with 120 cm in width.

View attachment 72238

They're looking good!
What will you power them with?
Digital or analogue crossover?

 

[Bjorn]

They're looking good!
What will you power them with?
Digital or analogue crossover?

Thank you.
I use Vera Audio amps (an audio brand I've started). P150/600 RS with Purifi modules is what I would use for the top horn.
Digital active crossover.

 

[KSTR]

As with any type of euphonic colouration, you're hardly ever able to adjust its intensity according to the needs of each particular recording thus tinting everything indiscriminately.

It doesn't matter much if it is a real room or an artificial one that is "tinting" the recording. The important thing is here that quite a few recordings need some reverb/ambience to "breathe", otherwise they sound just too flat and too direct. Jazz and pop recordings from the 50ies and 60ies with ping-pong stereo and close to no reverb/earlies come to mind here...

 

[Frank Dernie]

Full range horns are rare and big and usually very expensive. You have to sit a long way back for good integration since the units are so far apart.
I have these in one of my systems and love them, I listen at around 18' away.

The downward facing bass horn couples somewhat crudely with the corner of the room.
They are 109dB/watt and are 3dB down at 40Hz, 10 dB down at 31.5Hz on their ~1kHz level.

 

[tuga]

It doesn't matter much if it is a real room or an artificial one that is "tinting" the recording. The important thing is here that quite a few recordings need some reverb/ambience to "breathe", otherwise they sound just too flat and too direct. Jazz and pop recordings from the 50ies and 60ies with ping-pong stereo and close to no reverb/earlies come to mind here...

I agree. I listen mostly to classical and I find that when listening room acoustics overlay recorded acoustics there's masking which spoils realism.

Studio recordings are a different beast. I prefer to listen to some of those extreme "ping-pong" stereo recordings (i.e. The Beatles) in vinyl due to the poorer channel separation.

Sometimes less accuracy is beneficial. A case for euphonic harmonic distortion.

 

[Frank Dernie]

The LF horn cut off depends on the mouth size, iirc it needs to be about 16' square for full range sound so not very practical but an approximation isn't bad if coupled to the room corner.
There is no such thing as a satisfactory small horn speaker IMO, unless you give up on horn bass and then why bother?
So to do it properly the speaker will be B-I-G and you have to sit well back, not practical for many people.

 

[Purité Audio]

Having owned a number of them I just don’t see any advantages ( lots of disadvantages) , unless you are standing on one side of an Alpine pass...
Keith

 

[anmpr1]

They built them and/or played around the likes of Klipschorns and Altec-Lansing. I never liked the result very much. I think that it has to do with what you listen for.

Taste or music preference is probably part of it. But I also think "taste" here is very related to the room and acoustics.

A) Historical anecdote: in the early '70s Gordon Holt was asked why he didn't review the L100? For context, he had placed the AR3a in Stereophile's recommended category. Gordon replied that he didn't think it would sound very good and therefore he didn't want to bother (it was all he could do to review just a few select components anyhow). My impression was totally 180. I remember the first time I demoed the 3a and the L100. I thought the AR was lifeless, weak, anemic, closed down, and just plain useless as a loudspeaker, if the goal was to mimic live sound. The JBL was the first 'small' speaker I recall that approached what I considered to be a reasonable facsimile of live sound. So there's defintely some major differences (problems?) with individual perceptions. That's why I'm not too bothered with trying to obtain 'convergence' in loudspeakers. It's simply not a one size fits all thing, IMO.

B) I've found that (at least generally speaking...or generally listening LOL) small two way stand mounted box speakers are fairly forgiving with placement changes. I'm not talking 'up against the wall' or 'on the floor' type of radical placements, but generally out in the room here and there. On the other hand, small changes (I mean a few inches) in my LaScala horns make very large differences. This makes them problematic for placement in a domestic environment because they are so large. You really have to arrange the room to fit the speakers. You typically don't have to do that with a small box.

C) Someone mentioned price. I really don't understand well the selling price for a lot of audio gear. One thing you can point out is that Klipsch heritage models are hand formed, often to special order. The large ones are not simple construction projects. So labor and furniture grade materials could account for a lot of the cost to the consumer. I can kind of understand that. What I don't understand are rectangular box speakers stamped out in Malaysia (I'm talking to you, JBL) selling for the asking price of the current L100 Classic.

 

[watchnerd]

Having owned a number of them I just don’t see any advantages ( lots of disadvantages) , unless you are standing on one side of an Alpine pass...
Keith

So worth owning at some point in one's life for the experience and to market it off the bucket list?

 

[mhardy6647]

So worth owning at some point in one's life for the experience and to market it off the bucket list?

Or -- like a boat, or a swimming pool -- maybe it's even better to know someone who has a nice pair of horns and a fairly easygoing and welcoming demeanor! Bring snacks and/or drinks and get all of the advantages with none of the liabilities!

e.g., I know some guys...

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

I don't expect to convince anybody here, short of actually hearing them, but I get excellent and enveloping imaging using horns - and directional ones at that. The soundstage expands to the walls of the room and beyond that and the imaging is pinpoint where required. In some recordings these refrigerator-sized speakers completely disappear . They are time aligned and crossed over using a Linkwitz-Riley 24dB/octave / 500Hz frequency. My room is quite large; 6000 cubic feet with a cathedral ceiling which peaks at 12 feet. So yeah, excellent imaging is possible, but you'll probably have to go to some effort to achieve it.

 

[watchnerd]

Or -- like a boat, or a swimming pool -- maybe it's even better to know someone who has a nice pair of horns and a fairly easygoing and welcoming demeanor! Bring snacks and/or drinks and get all of the advantages with none of the liabilities!

e.g., I know some guys...

View attachment 72279View attachment 72280
View attachment 72281

I don't have any real life audiophile friends to mooch horn listening sessions from.

TBH, the most obsessive audiophiles are not people I like to hang around with in real life -- they get on my nerves pretty quickly.

But I like the sentiment!

 

[watchnerd]

I don't expect to convince anybody here, short of actually hearing them, but I get excellent and enveloping imaging using horns - and directional ones at that. The soundstage expands to the walls of the room and beyond that and the imaging is pinpoint where required. In some recordings these refrigerator-sized speakers completely disappear . They are time aligned and crossed over using a Linkwitz-Riley 24dB/octave / 500Hz frequency. My room is quite large; 6000 cubic feet with a cathedral ceiling which peaks at 12 feet. So yeah, excellent imaging is possible, but you'll probably have to go to some effort to achieve it.

The question of the thread isn't:

-Are horns great?

The question is:

-Are they a rite of passage?

 

[Thomas savage]

The question of the thread isn't:

-Are horns great?

The question is:

-Are they a rite of passage?

I think they are , I can't be arsed and my days of spending on audio are over but part of me is a little sad I never went down this road.

Have fun , buy a pair !