Horns - Necessary to complete the Audiophile Journey?

[MakeMineVinyl]

As Mark knows, I'm running a variant of these at home, and I think a large part of the magic is that the 414 runs up to ~ 4k and the 802/808 isn't brought in until 3k, so you are basically running the full range of most instruments (other than the bottom octave) on just the 414.

I've found with Altec A7-500s (using the same 414), that the opposite approach of crossing over at 500 Hz increases realism by allowing the majority of the spectrum to be handled by a single, efficient horn. One nice aspect of the A-7 bass cabinet is that the region of crossover is horn loaded both by the bass cabinet and the HF horn, not to mention the built-in time alignment due to the voice coils of the HF and LF drivers being in the same vertical plane.

 

[mhardy6647]

I've found with Altec A7-500s (using the same 414), that the opposite approach of crossing over at 500 Hz increases realism by allowing the majority of the spectrum to be handled by a single, efficient horn. One nice aspect of the A-7 bass cabinet is that the region of crossover is horn loaded both by the bass cabinet and the HF horn, not to mention the built-in time alignment due to the voice coils of the HF and LF drivers being in the same vertical plane.

I suspect you mean "416"
The 414 is a 12 inch driver -- and a danged nice one, too.
I... umm... wish I had a pair... as if I needed more drivers/loudspeakers...

EDIT: Here's a danged nice serving suggestion for the 414, from Joseph Esmilla.

Altec 753C

jelabs.blogspot.com

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

I suspect you mean "416"
The 414 is a 12 inch driver -- and a danged nice one, too.
I... umm... wish I had a pair... as if I needed more drivers/loudspeakers...

EDIT: Here's a danged nice serving suggestion for the 414, from Joseph Esmilla.

Altec 753C

jelabs.blogspot.com

Yes, you are correct - I was wondering why it couldn't get my 416s to fit into a 12" baffle hole.

 

[mhardy6647]

Oh, I should mention: my "Frankenaltecs", on the advice of one of the local (regional) gurus likewise cross over pretty low (about 600 Hz, actually).
... or maybe I shouldn't mention that.

 

[Thermionics]

Yes, you are correct - I was wondering why it couldn't get my 416s to fit into a 12" baffle hole.

Yeah, the 414 (esp. the 414a / 414z flavors) are a very neat woofer. Here's my take on Joseph Esmilla's design:

 

[mhardy6647]

I think we may be just a wee bit off the main axis of horn talk at ASR with this chatter...

 

[dasdoing]

I love horns (for mids at least), but does it make any sense to have a horn subwoofer?
What would the advantage be?

(it's in Portuguese but IIRC (he says) it goes from 25-120Hz)

 

[Kw6]

I love horns (for mids at least), but does it make any sense to have a horn subwoofer?
What would the advantage be?

(it's in Portuguese but IIRC (he says) it goes from 25-120Hz)

Speed! TBH I've never a good horn loaded woofer. I thought maybe Klipschorn or the bass horns from Avantgarde. All I know is in my room I have the typical hi-fi lower bass not real deep live music kind of bass.

 

[SIY]

Speed!

Of a woofer?

The main advantage is, of course, efficiency. And besides the usual horn increases in efficiency, because of the inevitable size of a 25 Hz horn, there's bass enhancement by room volume reduction.

 

[dasdoing]

The main advantage is, of course, efficiency.

Ok, this one I had put to the side, because we don't need a gigantic horn to have 105dB at 25Hz

there's bass enhancement by room volume reduction

not sure I understand. also his room actually got bigger since the horn is attached to the outside lol.
from another video:

 

[Sal1950]

I love horns (for mids at least), but does it make any sense to have a horn subwoofer?
What would the advantage be?

Lowest distortion, efficiency, etc.
But extremely few have the room for a true horn subwoofer.

 

[SIY]

also his room actually got bigger since the horn is attached to the outside lol.

He missed an opportunity!

My village zoning board would have an issue with this, unfortunately.

 

[egellings]

I love horns (for mids at least), but does it make any sense to have a horn subwoofer?
What would the advantage be?

(it's in Portuguese but IIRC (he says) it goes from 25-120Hz)

The size of such a horn would be gigantic due to the long wavelength of bass frequencies.

 

[dasdoing]

The size of such a horn would be gigantic due to the long wavelength of bass frequencies.

so he is lying? how deep could this get?

 

[Mr. Widget]

The happiest moments of horn ownership when you buy them and when you sell them .
Keith

...and many, perhaps most audiophiles would agree with you.

I have been around horn fanatics over the years who obsess over the magnets, shape, etc... They built them and/or played around the likes of Klipschorns and Altec-Lansing. I never liked the result very much. I think that it has to do with what you listen for. Horns always seemed really good at dynamics and micro-dynamics, probably due to their efficiency. And I appreciate that. But the stuff I have been around always left me feeling that the reproduction of timbre was off and sound staging was terrible. Don't ask me why. That is just my experience with them. YMMV

I think you have nailed it. In my opinion there is no truly accurate loudspeaker, but some get much closer than others and most horn speakers come up pretty short on the accuracy front. That said, we all have onboard computers that are continually making mental corrections... this is how we can recognize a kettle drum even when it is being played by a 2" speaker. It is also how after a period of ownership we typically find our system has "broken in".

That said, the most accurate best imaging mini-monitor with well integrated subs do not have the capability of sounding dynamically like live musical instruments. Some of us are more affected by this than others... as most of us have come to realize, every system is a collection of compromises. Some of us prefer to compromise on dynamics and some are willing to compromise on frequency extension, or linear response, or imaging, etc.

The person who loves their vintage LaScalas or VOTTs have decided that dynamics and perhaps max SPL are more important to them than tonal accuracy. (There is also a subset who need the extreme sensitivity these horn systems provide because they are enamored with very low wattage tube amplification... I am not really sure what is behind that desire.)

 

[Bjorn]

The advantage of a horn subwoofer is high effiency, very low distortion, high SPL from one driver, and it doesn't need much power to be driven. Basically you can get away with one single driver driven with something like 100W and it can't play seriously loud.

Drawback is size, and especially if you want true horn loading low in frequency. Many so called horn subwoofers operate on other principles or go over to bass reflex in the lowest frequencies.

I have one horn subwoofer with a 15" driver. I neeed at least three separate 15" bass reflex in 100L enclosures to compete with it, and they obviously require much more power. The single horn subwoofer plays with ease and effortless.

 

[Sal1950]

so he is lying? how deep could this get?

I don't think so, that is a gigantic horn, the mouth is at least 7' tall and it's a good twice that wide, I could only guess at the deepness of the throat. I don't understand the language but he didn't state the -3db point or if he's using EQ of any type but as an off the cuff guess I believe that 25hz cutoff is very possible there.

 

[Jaxjax]

Klangfilm has always interested me, I've had their amps but never the drivers or horns.

 

[Kw6]

Of a woofer?

The main advantage is, of course, efficiency. And besides the usual horn increases in efficiency, because of the inevitable size of a 25 Hz horn, there's bass enhancement by room volume reduction.

Thank you for your answer this makes sense!

 

[Keith_W]

I love horns (for mids at least), but does it make any sense to have a horn subwoofer?
What would the advantage be?

You might be interested in this diyaudio thread which discusses horn subwoofers.

(EDIT) I was reading the above thread when I came across this reply. He says some interesting things, I have never heard of it before. He is referring to horn subs, but:

A feature of horn subs liked by many is compression of the sound wave as it travel down the path to the narrow throat. This is most noticeable concerning drums. This is not the cone altering the sound wave but, related to the design, which is still coloration no matter how much you like the sound. In the same vain, DR subs relie on electronic compression to accomplish the same thing. Not a problem if that is what people like.

Question 1: what is this "compression" he is talking about, and what does it sound like? Is it real?
Question 2: How do you implement electronic compression on a DR (direct radiating) sub?

and

Horns get louder the further away from the MLP. For example, a horn sub is not as loud at 8-9 ft compared to 20 ft.

This has definitely been my experience, but my horns do not cover bass frequencies. I even have measurements to prove it. Well, my measurements show that the horns do not decrease in volume, whereas everything else does. What causes this phenomenon?

@Duke any comment?