Horn Speakers - Is it me or.......

[Wombat]

Mid-high horn hybrids(like my speakers). A well designed full-range horn system is even more awesome.

 

[anmpr1]

Yep, I purchased the set in the picture, unfinished and new, in 1978 for $1,000 and owned them for the next 32 years.
Sold in 2010 after my retirement and move to FL.

Yours were the old style single enclosure? The later LS II used a dual box--one for the woofer, and a separate enclosure for the mid/high horns. this year the II was superseded by a new model, with reworked drivers and crossover. Along with a two thousand dollar price increase.

Historical anecdote: The original La Scala was typically sold in a lower cost 'utility' finish. A more 'refined' cabinet version was sold as the Belle Klipsch. It was the same acoustically, but looked prettier. Named after Paul's first wife. Once he was divorced and remarried, that speaker was quickly dropped from the catalog. Wonder why? Instead, Paul prettied up the LaScala with Belle-like finishes, and that was that!

PS: I see your wife decorated them, to hide them. Wives have been known to do that. My wife threw a silk scarf over mine, and placed a plant on top. Now you can't see them. LOL

 

[MattHooper]

Yep, I purchased the set in the picture, unfinished and new, in 1978 for $1,000 and owned them for the next 32 years.
Sold in 2010 after my retirement and move to FL.
View attachment 38383

Thanks! What model are those speakers?

And which speakers did you move on to?

 

[Sal1950]

Yours were the old style single enclosure? The later LS II used a dual box--one for the woofer, and a separate enclosure for the mid/high horns. this year the II was superseded by a new model, with reworked drivers and crossover. Along with a two thousand dollar price increase.

Historical anecdote: The original La Scala was typically sold in a lower cost 'utility' finish. A more 'refined' cabinet version was sold as the Belle Klipsch. It was the same acoustically, but looked prettier. Named after Paul's first wife. Once he was divorced and remarried, that speaker was quickly dropped from the catalog. Wonder why? Instead, Paul prettied up the LaScala with Belle-like finishes, and that was that!

PS: I see your wife decorated them, to hide them. Wives have been known to do that. My wife threw a silk scarf over mine, and placed a plant on top. Now you can't see them. LOL

We were having a party that day, it was my fathers 75th birthday and everything was spruced up. My La Scala's were purchased as that unfinished version you refer to, you see them here with my 140lb guard Doberman "Max" keeping them secure. Later I did a half-a-sed job of finishing them. Those were good times when a working blue collar stiff like me could buy world class sound without having to pay for expensive top-shelf woodworking too. Paid $500 each, $1K for the pair, that would be $4k the pair in 2019 dollars.
A pair of 2019 AL5's will cost you $12,000 I'm shocked by the $4K increase in price for the AL5s, last years beautiful La Scala II model was $8k the pair?

 

[Sal1950]

Thanks! What model are those speakers?

1978 Klipsch La Scala's

And which speakers did you move on to?

HSU (4) HB1MK2 Satellites (1) HC1MK2 Center Channel, (2) STF-2 Subwoofers
Klipsch (4) HT-500 Satellites ceiling mounted for Atmos - Immersive channels.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/sals-system.614/

 

[anmpr1]

A pair of 2019 AL5's will cost you $12,000 I'm shocked by the $4K increase in price for the AL5s, last years beautiful La Scala II model was $8k the pair?

I can see why Fido's ears are perked.

Yes. I paid 8K for them. At the time, Klipsch was making the transition to a replacement model. I was seriously considering Revel speakers, but I wanted to try out Klispch. If I'd have gone with Revels, I'd have bought another AHB2, and I really didn't want to do that, if I didn't have to.

There is no dealer where I live, so I called Crutchfield, of all places. The nice lady told me she'd ship out a new pair, and if I didn't like them they'd take them back, no questions asked. I think she said I had 30 days. Free shipping w/no tax, BTW.

Four cartons arrived in about a week, by special moving company. The movers helped me place them. Very courteous. After living with them for a while I decided to make them the stop. Not that I think they are the best speakers, or even 'better' than the Revels I was considering. But they do it for me, so I'm happy. I'm sure it will be my last speaker purchase. Then let my daughter deal with it after I'm gone.

Personally, I would not have paid an additional four thousand dollars for their new and 'improved' pair. In fact, I thought eight was an awful lot. If Klipsch still made a 'utility' model, I'd have bought that, and finished it myself.

 

[MattHooper]

1978 Klipsch La Scala's


HSU (4) HB1MK2 Satellites (1) HC1MK2 Center Channel, (2) STF-2 Subwoofers
Klipsch (4) HT-500 Satellites ceiling mounted for Atmos - Immersive channels.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/sals-system.614/

Cool. You sure updated your system! Those HSU speakers get great notices.

I did a mega-home theater system 10 years ago and use it all the time. It's still only a 5.0 system (my L/C/R go low enough for me). Though atmos tempts me, it would be such a hassle and expense to upgrade my system I just keep putting it off.

 

[Sal1950]

Cool. You sure updated your system! Those HSU speakers get great notices.

Thanks, I'm fairly happy with the HSU's but keeping my eye's open for a upgrade. The HSU's seem a bit lacking in midrange detail but I haven't found anything to make a substantial improvement worth the large investment. I'm hoping to get a listen to the new JBL's at the HiFi show in Tampa this Feb. The base 5 speaker upgrade would be $5350

Yes. I paid 8K for them. At the time, Klipsch was making the transition to a replacement model. I was seriously considering Revel speakers, but I wanted to try out Klispch. If I'd have gone with Revels, I'd have bought another AHB2, and I really didn't want to do that, if I didn't have to.

I think you made the right call there. Floyd Toole made the statement that the JBL M2's compared to the Revel Salon2's, the JBL's came out on top in the listening tests

 

[Wombat]

Hey, let's get into 10 pages of cupped vs boxy.

Evidence discouraged as it inhibits personal hearing bias based on subjective preference opinions.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Hey, let's get into 10 pages of cupped vs boxy.

Evidence discouraged as it inhibits personal hearing bias based on subjective preference opinions.

I thought based upon measured results much of the cupped sound is an up and down frequency response or am I out of order here?

Some horn measurements.

 

[Wombat]

I thought based upon measured results much of the cupped sound is an up and down frequency response or am I out of order here?

Some horn measurements.
View attachment 38483

Singular or aggregated? No non-specific cherry picked measurements allowed. Ah, unsubstantiated opinion. Keep discussing.

 

[anmpr1]

Thanks, I'm fairly happy with the HSU's...

I think you made the right call there. Floyd Toole made the statement that the JBL M2's compared to the Revel Salon2's, the JBL's came out on top in the listening tests

I don't know much about the M2. But I know you are really talking dollars and not cents when you mention them. Sweetwater guitar store is selling them for almost 22 large. I'm not clear about it, but it looks like that price includes 2 Crown multi thousand watt amps. Another site lists the M2 for 6 thousand each, so that has to be it. Crown amplfiers are about 6 each. All special order stuff.

So it's a pretty expensive and extensive set up..., and I'm not set up for either that kind of expense and/or living room hardware extense. Plus, even with all that, you'd still need some kind of digital DAC-preamp of equal quality.

As large as the LaScala's are (and they are large) you don't need a lot of watts to drive them--100/ch is plenty. Although I appreciate your "When I need that little extra 'something' to push me over the cliff" type of thinking, I'd have to draw the line at a Phase Linear 700!

PS: Hsu keeps a pretty low profile. I remember their cardboard enclosure tube sub, which was one of the first inexpensive but really good subwoofers I ever read about. I like their FAQ statement: You cannot have too much subwoofer. That statement shows that Dr. Hsu understands the need for moderation in all things. LOL

 

[Dominique-T]

I thought based upon measured results much of the cupped sound is an up and down frequency response or am I out of order here?

Some horn measurements.
View attachment 38483

Some horn measurements, trebble and medium, before working on the crossover (a Duelund Synkron):

 

[Chris A]

I just really wanted to tri-amp and use FIR filters. No going back to passive crossovers for me.

Hi Ellery! I think that Siegfried Linkwitz pretty much summed it up:

Crossovers may be implemented either as passive RLC networks, as active filters with operational amplifier circuits or with DSP engines and software. The only excuse for passive crossovers is their low cost. Their behavior changes with the signal level dependent dynamics of the drivers. They block the power amplifier from taking maximum control over the voice coil motion. They are a waste of time, if accuracy of reproduction is the goal.

Chris

 

[Davelemi]

Damn, I just brought home a pair of Forte IIIs. Never thought I'd like them, but the amount of sound they produce at low volume is exactly what I need for my family room.

 

[gvl]

Try high volume, carefully.

 

[anmpr1]

Hi Ellery! I think that Siegfried Linkwitz pretty much summed it up:
Chris

The only excuse for passive crossovers is their low cost.

I would never ever cross horns with SL (for fear I might meet him in the afterlife and have to face the consequences). But it's not just low price, although that is certainly a major factor. It is also the overall complexity, and sophistication required to implement something like his LX 521. It is no trivial matter, especially when you consider that his creation is pretty much do-it-yourself.

Also, the 'low price' is really an understatement. He's talking about eight to ten channels of amplification--at least in his system... in addition to the other gear required. Now, let's say that you can afford very low noise amps, 8 (or 10) channels of Benchmark electricity. Are you going to find an active crossover with S/N to take advantage of that? I know his response would probably be something like, "You don't need that kind of signal purity." OK. I get that. But what if you want that?

Again, Siegfried was one of the greats. If he were alive, I would ask him those question... humbly.

 

[Neddy]

I don't know much about the M2. But I know you are really talking dollars and not cents when you mention them. Sweetwater guitar store is selling them for almost 22 large. I'm not clear about it, but it looks like that price includes 2 Crown multi thousand watt amps. Another site lists the M2 for 6 thousand each, so that has to be it. Crown amplfiers are about 6 each. All special order stuff.

So it's a pretty expensive and extensive set up..., and I'm not set up for either that kind of expense and/or living room hardware extense. Plus, even with all that, you'd still need some kind of digital DAC-preamp of equal quality.

Yes, but DIY M2s are not all that costly.
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?37659-Project-M2-DIY-Thread
(And elsewhere)
I've spent some time with these - they are nothing short of amazing.

 

[FrantzM]

The only excuse for passive crossovers is their low cost.

I would never ever cross horns with SL (for fear I might meet him in the afterlife and have to face the consequences). But it's not just low price, although that is certainly a major factor. It is also the overall complexity, and sophistication required to implement something like his LX 521. It is no trivial matter, especially when you consider that his creation is pretty much do-it-yourself.

Also, the 'low price' is really an understatement. He's talking about eight to ten channels of amplification--at least in his system... in addition to the other gear required. Now, let's say that you can afford very low noise amps, 8 (or 10) channels of Benchmark electricity. Are you going to find an active crossover with S/N to take advantage of that? I know his response would probably be something like, "You don't need that kind of signal purity." OK. I get that. But what if you want that?

Again, Siegfried was one of the greats. If he were alive, I would ask him those question... humbly.

II believe one can remain in the vicinity of a debatable notion of "low" ... price and high signal purity with something like that:
Okto Research DAC8 $1200 (The first reviewed version had crossover and filtering capabilities )
Nord One MP NC252 8 x 250W Channel Amplifier Silver $2000
or Equivalent Hypex or Ice-based multi-channel amp

Not cheap but the total price is that of just one Benchmark amp ... for similar performances. We are in the province of Ultra High Performance for under $10K for the entire system (speakers included), even if that involves a bit of DIY. (Actually mostly assembly, there is no cutting involved in the pre-cut version on Madisound)) ... Real prices in the USA is about $7000 if one factors in cable, accessories and tools.

If there is one thing this website has taught us all, it is that high performance doesn't have to be expensive...

 

[Chris A]

The only excuse for passive crossovers is their low cost.
...But it's not just low price, although that is certainly a major factor. It is also the overall complexity, and sophistication required to implement something like his LX 521. It is no trivial matter, especially when you consider that his creation is pretty much do-it-yourself.

Are you going to find an active crossover with S/N to take advantage of that? I know his response would probably be something like, "You don't need that kind of signal purity." OK. I get that. But what if you want that?

Ask Ellery (etc6849). I think he's got it: https://community.klipsch.com/index...t-i-got-today/&do=findComment&comment=2172512

I'm told that Hypex NCore modules can do it, too (the quiet amplifier part of the equation, with "pure" output...).

Chris