Horn Speakers - Is it me or.......

[MattHooper]

Yes, measurements matter. Yes, it's great to know if it's a visual stimuli acting on the auditory perception or if it's strictly soundwaves that are creating the perceptual difference. But perceptions are what we are after. Right?

That’s essentially my personal approach to my system.

As an example, if I took only one aspect of vinyl playback - the measurements - then I may have a good reason to avoid vinyl playback and only listen to digital playback.
But there’s a whole bunch of experiential aspects that come along with buying and playing records that factor into my enjoyment, and which play a part in the experience, and so it’s ultimately the experience I want to satisfy.

The same goes for when I buy loudspeakers.

In Audio Science mode I may be asking along with everybody else:

“What differences are audible in the signal itself?” (and what are the perceptual effects of those sound waves?)

But my real world listening criteria asks:

“Which system gives me the most convincing, satisfying experience?”

Those are related, but not identical questions.

A sighted evaluation might give a better answer to the second question, while giving a worse answer to the first.

I auditioned great measuring Revel speakers and fairly neutral but not as perfect Joseph speakers and my sighted listening experienced was very pronounced in favour of the Joseph speakers. And whatever additional sighted listening factors where involved or not, it was extremely repeatable since it was consistent in auditioning the Joseph speakers many times.

I can’t say that I wouldn’t have really enjoyed the Revel speakers (although I didn’t like their looks nearly as much as the Joseph), but I can certainly say that in terms of my regular informal listening experience I made a hugely satisfying purchase, as I continue to be thrilled with my speakers, even seven years later.

Similarly I have tried living with solid state amps driving my systems here and there over the year, and every single time I have found my system to less involving and relaxing and I would feel less compelled to sit down and listen in the sweet spot. As soon as I put my tube amp back in, it’s like the involvement shot up again, and it was hard to tear myself off my seat. I did the experiment enough times to tell me that there’s no way I’m giving up my tube amplifiers.

None of that is to say that solid state amplification “ sounds bad” because of course properly deployed it’s just neutral.

But, whatever variables that would be left out in blind testing, those variables seem to lead to “the most convincing, satisfying experience” for my personal listening pleasure. As with vinyl records, if the tube amps affect my psychology I’m happy to avail myself of that aspect.

And of course, folks here who might purchase purely on measurements - maybe without even auditioning the equipment first - often get that to work out great for them as well. Lots of ways to skin a moose.
(I’ve been very happy with some gear that I purchased purely on measurements too - my Benchmark preamp and DAC for instance).

 

[dped90]

Do be cautious about driver separation distances with Marcel horns, especially as they get larger.

Indeed I will. https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...-design-the-easy-way-ath4.338806/post-8191317

But why would the user of this 15.5"horn https://at-horns.eu/datasheets/ATH-EXAR-400-25_datasheet.pdf apparently have no such problems with his passively crossed system? https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...-design-the-easy-way-ath4.338806/post-8191371

If so, then no lobing or other problems using the 18.11" A460D or 20.47" A520G2 horn above my 15" midwoofer in sealed 100 liter cabinet?

 

[Vineeth Kumar V]

Indeed I will. https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...-design-the-easy-way-ath4.338806/post-8191317

But why would the user of this 15.5"horn https://at-horns.eu/datasheets/ATH-EXAR-400-25_datasheet.pdf apparently have no such problems with his passively crossed system? https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...-design-the-easy-way-ath4.338806/post-8191371

That is because the vertical polars of that speaker may look like below

What frightens most people without experience of building speaker systems, measuring and listening to them, are those nulls near the crossover frequency of 850 ish Hz
To take a deeper look into how the "lobes" look like in that region, here is an illustration

The situation near the crossover frequency

So in the worst-case situation, there is a lobe width of approximately. 40 degrees from the bottom of the lobe to top.
When the listener sits 2m away on the design axis, applying some simple trigonometry reveals that there is approximately 73cm vertical "wiggle room" for the head in the up or down direction. This means that those problematic nulls are aimed at the feet of the listener and most likely at a corner of the room's ceiling.
Even if this listener, having 5foot 7inch height, stands up and walks around, there is no serious problem because of those nulls in the vertical polars (as long as he is 2m+ away from the speaker).

Therefore, any discussion of driver C2C causing problems without considering the context of listening height, listening distance, and crossover frequency is nonsensical.
All it can help with in such a case is to distract one's attention from real design problems and obsess on seemingly problematic things that do not have any real-world significance

 

[tmuikku]

And there is more: even if listening at where the null is, it's not so obvious. Early reflections patch it in, especially the lower the xo is. Also, frequency response dips are one of least audible things, way less audible than response peaks.

 

[Newman]

Indeed I will. https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...-design-the-easy-way-ath4.338806/post-8191317

But why would the user of this 15.5"horn https://at-horns.eu/datasheets/ATH-EXAR-400-25_datasheet.pdf apparently have no such problems with his passively crossed system? https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...-design-the-easy-way-ath4.338806/post-8191371

If so, then no lobing or other problems using the 18.11" A460D or 20.47" A520G2 horn above my 15" midwoofer in sealed 100 liter cabinet?

I am not an authority, I cannot reassure you. I chose to raise a concern, and it is, per se, legitimate.

Other people 'reporting no issues' doesn't really mean much. There might truly be nothing audible going on, or they might be overlooking something that a more careful experiment might reveal to be less preferred.

IMHO this is one of those areas where, assuming we are not going to design and conduct careful experiments, it is wise to just try to minimise it on principle.

cheers

 

[Mort]

What's the advantage of a horn speaker? It's super narrow directivity?

 

[goat76]

I don't know if this is "a thing" for horn speakers in general, but when I visited my local HiFi store a few years ago and listened to the JBL HDI-3800, I noticed they must be susceptible to how they are set up with the toe-in. In that demo room, they were positioned almost without any toe-in at all, and what could be heard was a "double-effect" of what was supposed to be the phantom center sounds. The vocal track was coming from each of the two loudspeakers, instead of a distinct-sounding center image coming from the spot right in the middle between the speakers.

I'm sure this could have been avoided with a more precise toe-in setup, but then you lose the option of fine-tuning the treble response, which is possible with many other loudspeakers that have other types of tweeter solutions.

Again, I'm not sure the above-mentioned problem is a general horn-related problem, as I have limited experience with other horn speakers.

 

[Audionaut]

What's the advantage of a horn speaker? It's super narrow directivity?

The main advantage of a horn loudspeaker is not primarily its extremely narrow directivity, but rather its very high efficiency. A horn acts as an acoustic impedance converter between the driver and the air, ensuring that the sound energy generated by the driver is emitted into the room much more efficiently than with a direct radiator. This has several practical consequences. Significantly less electrical power is required for a given sound pressure level, the membrane deflection remains low and distortion is reduced.

Directivity is more of an accompanying feature than the actual purpose. Horns focus sound more strongly, with the degree of focusing depending heavily on the shape, size, and frequency of the horn. Modern horn designs are often engineered to provide the most consistent dispersion possible across a wide frequency range, not necessarily a particularly narrow one. This controlled directivity can have advantages because it reduces early room reflections and increases direct sound components, which can lead to better clarity and intelligibility. However, it can also have disadvantages, such as a smaller sweet spot or greater sensitivity to placement and listening position.

In summary, the real added value of horn loudspeakers lies in their high efficiency, low distortion, and exceptional dynamics, especially at realistic levels. Directivity is a tool for controlling sound in the room, when used sensibly, it is an advantage, but not the defining feature of a horn loudspeaker.

The waveguide on your Genelecs already improves the acoustic coupling to the air. In a physical sense, it is therefore a mild form of horn but with the emphasis on dispersion control rather than maximum efficiency.

 

[Mort]

The main advantage of a horn loudspeaker is not primarily its extremely narrow directivity, but rather its very high efficiency. A horn acts as an acoustic impedance converter between the driver and the air, ensuring that the sound energy generated by the driver is emitted into the room much more efficiently than with a direct radiator. This has several practical consequences. Significantly less electrical power is required for a given sound pressure level, the membrane deflection remains low and distortion is reduced.

Directivity is more of an accompanying feature than the actual purpose. Horns focus sound more strongly, with the degree of focusing depending heavily on the shape, size, and frequency of the horn. Modern horn designs are often engineered to provide the most consistent dispersion possible across a wide frequency range, not necessarily a particularly narrow one.

Thank you. That was so informative and concise.

The waveguide on your Genelecs already improves the acoustic coupling to the air. In a physical sense, it is therefore a mild form of horn but with the emphasis on dispersion control rather than maximum efficiency.

Yes, exactly. You anticipated my next question about the waveguide relationship to horn. That's my frame of reference.

This controlled directivity can have advantages because it reduces early room reflections and increases direct sound components, which can lead to better clarity and intelligibility. However, it can also have disadvantages, such as a smaller sweet spot or greater sensitivity to placement and listening position.

This is the way I use and hear my main nearfield 8361a monitors, toed in with a high direct to indirect ratio. And despite it being coaxial, I do find the sweet spot to be small. It's plenty for a single person though. The comparison is useful.

 

[Newman]

The main advantage of a horn loudspeaker is not primarily its extremely narrow directivity, but rather its very high efficiency.

In pro audio application it is both, equally.

And in the home it is, arguably, neither. Non-horn drivers, when chosen for strong output with good quality, can achieve SPLs well above the demands of home listening, and domestic amplifiers are widely available with more than enough power to deliver those SPLs cleanly. So, there is little need for the higher efficiency. And as for "extremely narrow directivity", domestic audio science seems to point more in the opposite direction, and would give very little support to the notion.

A horn acts as an acoustic impedance converter between the driver and the air, ensuring that the sound energy generated by the driver is emitted into the room much more efficiently than with a direct radiator. This has several practical consequences. Significantly less electrical power is required for a given sound pressure level, the membrane deflection remains low and distortion is reduced.

As I explained above, electrical power is not at a premium when driving non-horn drivers, at least domestically, so this 'practical consequence' has no real consequence, in practice.

As for distortion, horns really struggle to keep distortion as low as a good non-horn, even after allowing for the power difference. Not at domestic SPLs.

Directivity is more of an accompanying feature than the actual purpose.

Domestically, I argue that it becomes the primary/actual purpose, and the sub-class of horns meeting this functionality is called waveguides.

Horns focus sound more strongly, with the degree of focusing depending heavily on the shape, size, and frequency of the horn. Modern horn designs are often engineered to provide the most consistent dispersion possible across a wide frequency range, not necessarily a particularly narrow one.

...and that makes them waveguides, and best discussed as such to avoid confusion.

This controlled directivity can have advantages because it reduces early room reflections and increases direct sound components, which can lead to better clarity and intelligibility. However, it can also have disadvantages, such as a smaller sweet spot or greater sensitivity to placement and listening position.

In summary, the real added value of horn loudspeakers lies in their high efficiency, low distortion, and exceptional dynamics, especially at realistic levels. Directivity is a tool for controlling sound in the room, when used sensibly, it is an advantage, but not the defining feature of a horn loudspeaker.

You make it sound like horns that are not waveguides have "real added value" in the home. I don't think so, and have explained why.

The waveguide on your Genelecs already improves the acoustic coupling to the air. In a physical sense, it is therefore a mild form of horn but with the emphasis on dispersion control rather than maximum efficiency.

[to Audionaut] Thank you. That was so informative and concise.

...You anticipated my next question about the waveguide relationship to horn. That's my frame of reference.

That relationship has been discussed earlier in this thread. (link1.... link2) There are misconceptions about the use of the terms horn and waveguide and the relationship.

I guess I am not so concise, but there was more to be said.

cheers

 

[kyuu]

As for distortion, horns really struggle to keep distortion as low as a good non-horn, even after allowing for the power difference. Not at domestic SPLs.

From what I've seen, typically the distortion is mostly or entirely second order and likely not of audible consequence.

As I explained above, electrical power is not at a premium when driving non-horn drivers, at least domestically, so this 'practical consequence' has no real consequence, in practice.

Perhaps not when talking average power levels, but for dynamic peaks it may be different. Particularly if you aren't running 500W amps, which aren't a practical thing for everyone despite the constant refrain of "power is cheap".