I heard a huge Custom horn system at a Kissaten (audio bar) in Tokyo. I didn’t think it was so great. I believe it was the low power-SET-to-horn type of setup. I found the sound a little fatiguing and unrealistic.
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Horn Speakers - Is it me or.......
- Thread starter March Audio
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There are no subwoofers.
I play music by JRiver or Roon on a computer with i5 CPU. The CPU also processes the digital filters, in this case FIR filters with 131072 taps @ 88.2 kHz. CPU load is about 12% for convolution.
You can read more about such digital XO at e.g. https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/ca-a...e-alignment-driver-linearization-walkthrough/
I have used the amps, btw. still 'old' TacT amplifiers, since more than 15 years for multi-way speaker activations. Actually the PC drives them by a miniDSP UDIO-8 interface (before I had RME AES32 but also Focusrite RedNet D16 in use). As horns do not need a lot of power you can combine also different amps. With analog amps you may need to search for a high signal-to-noise ratio. The TacT amps are dead silent without signal.
Btw it was my motivation to post about horns here as they can sound unbelievable good. Not only for brass bands but also classical music. Of course it is necessary to tame the beasts and a key is here to time align the drivers (beside frequency response correction). Some posts here show that there are much bad designs out there.
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I think the OP's description fits with most of the horns I've heard. I've thought the old Klipsch Horns were the best of the old school horns in a proper corner in a large room. Better than Altec VOT's anyway. I was surprised when on 2 occasions I was able to EQ or Room correct some K-horns how much better it made them sound. Didn't diminish their dynamics, but did help their problems.
I've not heard any modern horn designs that address the issues of horns. I didn't think DIY Edgar Horns really fixed the horn coloration problem. Uli's horns would be something to hear I bet.
I've not heard any modern horn designs that address the issues of horns. I didn't think DIY Edgar Horns really fixed the horn coloration problem. Uli's horns would be something to hear I bet.
MRC01
Major Contributor
The first time I heard horns was an in-depth 3-way speaker listening test a long time ago (back in the 1980s). We auditioned a Klipsch speaker having a horn tweeter, compared with 2 pairs conventional speakers having dome tweeters, I believe it was a Polk Audio and a B&W. All were priced similarly. The horns played louder at the same volume setting, but when we normalized the volume the horns in comparison sounded colored and rolled off the highest frequencies, dulling transient response. Later as I attended audio shows or occasionally visited audio stores over the years, casual listening confirmed the same differences. Some people like horns, maybe I've never heard good ones, but the ones I've heard tell me they're just not for me.
orangejello
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Same as yours. I have been around a group of audiophiles that spent untoward amounts of time and money designing esoteric horn systems. Everything they came up with sounded "weird" to me. But they would listen enthralled and try to figure out what the next tweak would be.
watchnerd
Grand Contributor
Where do the classic Tannoy coincident drivers fit in the horn taxonomy of pros vs cons?
The tweeters have different waveguides called "pepperpot" and "tulip"....
The tweeters have different waveguides called "pepperpot" and "tulip"....
Quite possibly. As mitchco has already mentioned JBL has been producing SOTA sounding horns for the last decade at least from the large M2's and 43xx family down. How many here own 705-8s or 305-8s? Genelec's? A number of the latest Klipsch getting rave reviews from all corners.
Semantics
Given the room I'd take a great high efficiency system any time.
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IMO mandatory corner placement was the big K-Horns greatest weakness. Their sister speakers, La Scala and Belle, identical except for the bass section, allowed for placement at will. With proper placement, yes they had "head in a vice" narrow sweet spots but I've never heard a system in my life that could image better.
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https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/i...&catid=77:loudspeaker-measurements&Itemid=153
The Tannoy's have a rather ragged response here. Off axis referenced to on axis seems well controlled, but on axis is still ragged. Disappointing for a $16k speaker. And they weren't especially efficient.
Here is a less expensive coincident driver horn with similar ragged response and worse off axis smoothness.
http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/measurements/speakers/atelier_first_horn/
The Tannoy's have a rather ragged response here. Off axis referenced to on axis seems well controlled, but on axis is still ragged. Disappointing for a $16k speaker. And they weren't especially efficient.
Here is a less expensive coincident driver horn with similar ragged response and worse off axis smoothness.
http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/measurements/speakers/atelier_first_horn/
ernestcarl
Major Contributor
My Sceptre S8 (I'd say not your typical horn) monitors has quite similar deep notches found in the graphs below, around to 2kHz and 3.5kHz as you go beyond 30 degress off-axis. A consequence of the physical limitations of the design of these speakers -- you do get high efficieny and at higher SPLs.
Speaker measurements here are from the RM28ac
Speaker measurements here are from the RM28ac
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Interesting point. I'll try that test sometime.
Hi
I have come to believe based on anecdotal non-Scientific experiences that some horn speakers because of their very high sensitivity are more linear in term of dynamic capabilities. Many speakers suffer from dynamic compression, some will simply refuse to play louder past a certain point... This inability to reproduce the peaks can sometimes translates in what some call "polite" ... The loudspeaker sounding somewhat "reticent" ... The better horns don't do that. In fact what can be attributed to horns can be sometimes found in other speakers high sensitivity (>95 dB 1 w/1m/8 ohms) ... I remember the Goldmund TOL (Epilogue?) as very capable in this department. This speaker sounds large, sounds big, alive. I know those are subjective impressions and likely to be derided by the community here with good reasons but ... I believe this can be measured, this jump factor can be measured... Some Klipsch speakers have it , The Scala, The Klipschorn, many JBL do the old K2 did... I haven't heard the M2 but have heard the DD67000 and this speaker is an experience . Strangely these speakers are not much discussed here.. They seem to exist in a different sphere at JBL/Harman.
I think it would prudent to NOT make the jump that all speakers sound "horny" or "shouty", etc .. Those are stereotypes. There are, as in any thing in life, good and bad models. Some horn designs are flawed and can only produce bad results, yet are popular (thing SET tubes in High End Audio ...). To complicate matters, there are speakers that are in fact horns but are not perceived as such (The Waveguide vs horn discussion notwithstanding ) e.g. the, now interesting to me, Beolab 5, the Beolab 50, etc... One could put the Dutch and Dutch 8c in this category. Laugh all you want but also great sounding but frowned upon/ignored speakers such as the Cerwin Vega XLS-215... ... Confusion, confusion ...
There is something about high efficiency speakers that need to be investigated properly: They present music differently. The better models have a "liveliness", that is lacking in lower efficiency speakers . It could be a matter of being linear in dynamics ... Horns tend to be of higher efficiency than their direct radiating loudspeakers and this may translate in better linearity in term of dynamics. This is not limited to horn speakers, High Efficiency speakers present dynamics better to my ears. I was reminded of that in listening to the Goldmund TOl of the line (Epilogue?).. It shared to mey ears many attributes of horns, among these a sense of ease and the impression of infinite dynamics. Laugh all you want but many Cerwin Vega. All speculations from me ... Horns and their cousin waveguide speakers can also control their dispersion characteristics... This is put in place in seriously designed speakers such as The JBL M2, LSR Series (3, 7), Revel Ultima Series. Thing is, when it is small ( Revel, etc) people perceive it as a "waveguide" , bigger it is a "horn" .. The distinction escapes me but both horn and waveguide do their things by controlling dispersion ... Speakers are more complex than most audiophiles realize ...
Tom Danley from Danley Sounds, one of the most innovative speaker designers around has shown that there some sounds that we would not normally associate with high SPL produces actually very level of volume for a very short time. This accounts, in part, his opinion to this sensation of "Live" events. I can't retrieve his post but he did show at the WBF forum that a simple key jingling had very high content of instantaneous SPL.
Fr the most part we measure average and weighted Sound Pressure Levels. Instantaneous levels may be higher than what we see on an SPL... Talking to myself , I need to research this subject more
...
In my quest for a momentary end game speakers, one of the speakers I would like to own, is the non-longer made Geddes Abbey. It is high efficiency (>95 dB) and use, what his eminent designer calls, a Waveguide and it is of the Constant Directivity or Controlled Directivity type... CD...
I have come to believe based on anecdotal non-Scientific experiences that some horn speakers because of their very high sensitivity are more linear in term of dynamic capabilities. Many speakers suffer from dynamic compression, some will simply refuse to play louder past a certain point... This inability to reproduce the peaks can sometimes translates in what some call "polite" ... The loudspeaker sounding somewhat "reticent" ... The better horns don't do that. In fact what can be attributed to horns can be sometimes found in other speakers high sensitivity (>95 dB 1 w/1m/8 ohms) ... I remember the Goldmund TOL (Epilogue?) as very capable in this department. This speaker sounds large, sounds big, alive. I know those are subjective impressions and likely to be derided by the community here with good reasons but ... I believe this can be measured, this jump factor can be measured... Some Klipsch speakers have it , The Scala, The Klipschorn, many JBL do the old K2 did... I haven't heard the M2 but have heard the DD67000 and this speaker is an experience . Strangely these speakers are not much discussed here.. They seem to exist in a different sphere at JBL/Harman.
I think it would prudent to NOT make the jump that all speakers sound "horny" or "shouty", etc .. Those are stereotypes. There are, as in any thing in life, good and bad models. Some horn designs are flawed and can only produce bad results, yet are popular (thing SET tubes in High End Audio ...). To complicate matters, there are speakers that are in fact horns but are not perceived as such (The Waveguide vs horn discussion notwithstanding ) e.g. the, now interesting to me, Beolab 5, the Beolab 50, etc... One could put the Dutch and Dutch 8c in this category. Laugh all you want but also great sounding but frowned upon/ignored speakers such as the Cerwin Vega XLS-215... ... Confusion, confusion ...
There is something about high efficiency speakers that need to be investigated properly: They present music differently. The better models have a "liveliness", that is lacking in lower efficiency speakers . It could be a matter of being linear in dynamics ... Horns tend to be of higher efficiency than their direct radiating loudspeakers and this may translate in better linearity in term of dynamics. This is not limited to horn speakers, High Efficiency speakers present dynamics better to my ears. I was reminded of that in listening to the Goldmund TOl of the line (Epilogue?).. It shared to mey ears many attributes of horns, among these a sense of ease and the impression of infinite dynamics. Laugh all you want but many Cerwin Vega. All speculations from me ... Horns and their cousin waveguide speakers can also control their dispersion characteristics... This is put in place in seriously designed speakers such as The JBL M2, LSR Series (3, 7), Revel Ultima Series. Thing is, when it is small ( Revel, etc) people perceive it as a "waveguide" , bigger it is a "horn" .. The distinction escapes me but both horn and waveguide do their things by controlling dispersion ... Speakers are more complex than most audiophiles realize ...
Tom Danley from Danley Sounds, one of the most innovative speaker designers around has shown that there some sounds that we would not normally associate with high SPL produces actually very level of volume for a very short time. This accounts, in part, his opinion to this sensation of "Live" events. I can't retrieve his post but he did show at the WBF forum that a simple key jingling had very high content of instantaneous SPL.
Fr the most part we measure average and weighted Sound Pressure Levels. Instantaneous levels may be higher than what we see on an SPL... Talking to myself , I need to research this subject more
...In my quest for a momentary
end game speakers, one of the speakers I would like to own, is the non-longer made Geddes Abbey. It is high efficiency (>95 dB) and use, what his eminent designer calls, a Waveguide and it is of the Constant Directivity or Controlled Directivity type... CD...
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It seems to me that Cerwin-Vega really is the last holdout of the old "big box 3-way with huge woofers" style of speakers.
They do mostly get ignored by the audiophile crowd, and if CV is ever mentioned, it is usually with derision. Their speakers have gotten a very pervasive reputation for being all about brute force with no finesse, but I've never found that to actually be true. I've always been impressed by their dynamic capability and the grip they have on complicated bass lines.. Maybe their distinctive PA-like designs with the red woofer surrounds put a lot of people off, and I wish they would produce speakers with beautiful wood veneers again.
I know I would have a hard time defending two huge black monoliths in the living room, my girlfriend is certainly not a fan of "huge black boxes", which I fully understand. They do tend to be very imposing.
I do hope CV will continue producing big bold speakers for a long time. I would love to have a set of XLS-215s (and a living room big enough to do them justice.
At low frequencies, bigger than the speaker, up to say 400hz, you can get the same dynamics using conventional drivers - just use a lot of them. At mid frequencies, you can use arrays but they will necessarily need to be smaller arrays unless you're doing a line array or CBT array or something.
High frequencies is where horns and waveguides become necessary. You can't have a tweeter array if you want smooth and wide dispersion.
I think the horn market is driven mostly by the popularity of low-wattage amplifiers, a trend which I don't see going anywhere.
High frequencies is where horns and waveguides become necessary. You can't have a tweeter array if you want smooth and wide dispersion.
I think the horn market is driven mostly by the popularity of low-wattage amplifiers, a trend which I don't see going anywhere.
There's the BIC RtR-EV15 from the Eviction series with 15" woofers and a horn tweeter. I see references to Roy Allison as a design consultant FWIW. Available at Home Depot!
http://www.bicamerica.com/showpage.php?brand=3&type=15&spkrID=120
Separating the chaff from the wheat is an issue .. Amir and other have done this for us for DACs (to a lesser extent speaker amps and AVRs) and in the case of headphones SolderDude ... We aren't there for Speakers, just yet; one of many reasons why we would like the Kind King to get himself into it. It is sorely needed.
This BIC speaker could well be the bee's knee but BIC is not a brand I would associate with great sound ... Then again few audiophile would associate B&O with great sound (Some of their speakers do sound good and better than many celebrated Audiophiles speakers) or a low brow, lo-fi, PA-famous , Cerwin Vega ...
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All of the above to say that the comments we see in this thread, can be applied to any speaker technology be it direct radiating, ESL, Electro Magnetic planar or exotic speakers we audiophiles are often enamored with (plasma tweeter, Heil Transducer, Galss speakers , omni Directional leaf-tranducers, There was/is even a speaker which has gas in it and that could leak ... Dayton-Wright? etc..).
No, I wouldn't think of BIC for high-end, but if someone wants big woofers comparable to Cerwin-Vega in a thread about horns, these do come to mind. I would love to see measurements!
MattHooper
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I get Horn Speakers. I don't own any though.
Experience at the recent Toronto Audio Fest reminded me of the horn virtues (Avante Guard and Klipsch demos etc). Horns seem to produce a palpability lacking in many other audiophile speakers. Even a string quartet through the Avant Guard speakers have the impression of solid presence of musicians playing enthusiastically, that made some of the other "normal" speakers seem a bit wispy in comparison.
Experience at the recent Toronto Audio Fest reminded me of the horn virtues (Avante Guard and Klipsch demos etc). Horns seem to produce a palpability lacking in many other audiophile speakers. Even a string quartet through the Avant Guard speakers have the impression of solid presence of musicians playing enthusiastically, that made some of the other "normal" speakers seem a bit wispy in comparison.
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