Horizontal Bi-amplification: thoughts?

[Alan O]

Just a bit of my experience...

I'm in the process of putting together a 3-way active crossover system with multiple power amps - though no electrostatic speakers, so I can't address that specific angle. I have the amps, and my main speakers have split passive crossovers with two sets of binding posts, so I thought I might as well try passive bi-amping while they're sitting there waiting for me to finish my active crossovers.

I spent a bit of time using two power amps and speaker crossovers split, and just one amp and the crossovers linked. Sometimes I thought I could hear a minor difference. But some days I realised I couldn't remember which way round I had it set up - and without looking over at it, I could tell nothing just from listening. So my conclusion is in line with the general agreement (as linked earlier in this thread), that passive bi-amping offers no benefits (*)

(*Disclaimer: subjective personal anecdote, other ears and misconceptions are available)

 

[khaliss]

haha feels like I'm getting ganged up, but hey that's understandable given how AI gets negatively viewed... particularly when people frame questions in sort of a subjective manner (expecting objective answers). All well & good =)

Thanks all for the feedback (even the ones that think horizontal bi-amping is a waste of time & space)... my experience has been quite positive, so I will stand by that. In the next few days, after my current issue with one panel has been resolved... I will stress test the system & if I get some alone time in the house, will crank it UP & see if the setup still sounds ultra clean, distortion-free, & sonically blissful =D

 

[khaliss]

I'm glad they are helping.

It's nice to see Martin Logan support legacy products like this. There are very few companies remaining that support their products, even more rare for a brand to provide after-sales support used market. Good job capturing the change over time.

Classic ESL-9 electrostat speaker is not a legacy product... though it's been out for several years now, it's still current in the market. There is not a replacement model out yet.

 

[MAB]

@khaliss I am genuinely trying to be helpful here. You might be wondering why people are giving you such a hard time. On any other forum, your question would be met with positive replies encouraging you to go for it, along with anecdotes about how they tried it and it improved the sound. But not here. I don't want you to go away thinking we are all a bunch of pricks, so you should reflect on two mistakes you are making which is getting everyone riled up.

1. You are talking to AI and believing what it says. Please read ASR's policy on AI and take note that we do not consider AI to be an authoritative source. In fact, most of us see a wall of AI text and ignore it. We don't bother reading it. So please, no more AI. It just annoys everyone.

2. You are rehashing a well-worn debate that has been done over and over. You have been given links by @MAB in this post so that you can clear up your misunderstanding.

There is only ONE benefit to horizontal bi-amping. If your amplifier clips, it won't send harmonics to the high frequency drivers. Apart from that, there is no benefit. And if you aim to avoid clipping in the first place, as everyone is suggesting, you won't run into this problem at all.

We even have a thread on the harmonic spray that occurs when an amp is clipped.

Digital clipping or square waves damaging tweeters over time. Myth or real?

Can digital clipping damage speakers? I have heard both sides on many forums. Don’t know what side is speaking the truth. What do you experts think ?

www.audiosciencereview.com

While the effect is real, the impact is actually quite tiny.

Rod Elliott also has a nice page on this.

BiAmp (Bi-Amplification - Not Quite Magic, But Close) - Part 1

ESP - The Audio Pages. How to biamp or triamp your hi-hi speaker system for greatly improved sound, and higher sound levels with less distortion.

sound-au.com

 

[Mr. Widget]

Unless it's active bi-amplification I don't give it much thought, just seems an inappropriate amp to start with.

If it's active and properly implemented, it can be a real improvement. If it is passive, aka a step above bi-wire, it is simply a waste of time.

 

[Mr. Widget]

AI will grab and regurgitate.

...and pardon the pun, amplify the BS.

 

[khaliss]

We even have a thread on the harmonic spray that occurs when an amp is clipped.

Digital clipping or square waves damaging tweeters over time. Myth or real?

Can digital clipping damage speakers? I have heard both sides on many forums. Don’t know what side is speaking the truth. What do you experts think ?

www.audiosciencereview.com

While the effect is real, the impact is actually quite tiny.

Rod Elliott also has a nice page on this.

BiAmp (Bi-Amplification - Not Quite Magic, But Close) - Part 1

ESP - The Audio Pages. How to biamp or triamp your hi-hi speaker system for greatly improved sound, and higher sound levels with less distortion.

sound-au.com

Yes, I've read about Rod Elliot's article on bi-amping awhile back & of course everything on it makes good sense

Since I already have the gear for it, I wanted to try it anyway & the results seem to be quite positive (at least to my ears )

 

[MAB]

haha feels like I'm getting ganged up, but hey that's understandable given how AI gets negatively viewed spews BS in every time... particularly when people frame questions in sort of a subjective manner (expecting objective answers). All well & good =)

No, how it is viewed isn't the problem. It's not some cultural problem. Good grief.

You keep asking us to give expert feedback on your AI results. Over and over. And play the victim when you don't get confirmation from members.

 

[khaliss]

No, how it is viewed isn't the problem. It's not some cultural problem. Good grief.

You keep asking us to give expert feedback on your AI results. Over and over. And play the victim when you don't get confirmation from members

haha I wasn't being serious with the "ganged up" comment... com'n this is just another internet forum, are we supposed to be so serious all the time?

Jokes aside, AI is just another tool... and I never said it was usually right (if I did, then I never would have posted in the first place & asking for feedback) Not seeking full validation at all from the forum members & 'experts', I just wanted to see what others think, particularly those who may have extensively tried it for themselves (not just because other experts said so).

Ultimately, it's our own actual experiences, common sense & derived conclusions that shape how we really see things for ourselves.

PEACE

 

[khaliss]

Just a bit of my experience...

I'm in the process of putting together a 3-way active crossover system with multiple power amps - though no electrostatic speakers, so I can't address that specific angle. I have the amps, and my main speakers have split passive crossovers with two sets of binding posts, so I thought I might as well try passive bi-amping while they're sitting there waiting for me to finish my active crossovers.

I spent a bit of time using two power amps and speaker crossovers split, and just one amp and the crossovers linked. Sometimes I thought I could hear a minor difference. But some days I realised I couldn't remember which way round I had it set up - and without looking over at it, I could tell nothing just from listening. So my conclusion is in line with the general agreement (as linked earlier in this thread), that passive bi-amping offers no benefits (*)

(*Disclaimer: subjective personal anecdote, other ears and misconceptions are available)

Now, this is a feedback I appreciate... actual experiences. What speakers did you try with your setup (specs?), are they difficult to drive (4ohm or below), i heard of higher-end conventional speakers that dip down 2-3ohms(?)

Maybe someone with planar/electrostatic speakers could chime in if they tried horizontal bi-amping & with a similar amp as mine (which can operate in class-A at low wattage?)... I'd love to hear actual experiences

 

[Ruediger]

No actual experience, just some opinion.. most times when I read about bi-amping it's an open shut case of not needed. These speakers actually present a case where you could profit from it. Not saying it's the case, it just looks like it to me. Then you have this massive class A box that can't be bridged.

Where's your priority? The nice speakers or that amp? If this is about the speakers, maybe ditch the amp for a proper active crossover solution. Or simply one amp / a dual mono / two monos / whatever is preferred that has no problem at all with the impedance challenge from these speakers. Hypex and Purifi come to mind.

 

[LTig]

Yes, I've read about Rod Elliot's article on bi-amping awhile back & of course everything on it makes good sense

Since I already have the gear for it, I wanted to try it anyway & the results seem to be quite positive (at least to my ears )

This: are you aware of expectation bias and do you know how to perform a valid listening test? If not you will fool yourself - been there, done that.

 

[Alan O]

Now, this is a feedback I appreciate... actual experiences. What speakers did you try with your setup (specs?), are they difficult to drive (4ohm or below), i heard of higher-end conventional speakers that dip down 2-3ohms(?)

My speakers are a bit home-brew - Mission from the UK but with drivers replaced, so I don't have any impedance figures. But the originals didn't have any dips worth noting, and the new drivers have well-behaved impedance curves. I'm using a 100wpc power amp, but I've also used the speakers to test some low-power amps (20-35wpc) that I've repaired/serviced with no problems. So there's no low-impedance issue here.

I do have a pair of Magneplanars to repair and I hope I'll get round to using them some day... but they've stood waiting for me for a few years now, so don't hold your breath

 

[Sir Sanders Zingmore]

Now, this is a feedback I appreciate... actual experiences. What speakers did you try with your setup (specs?), are they difficult to drive (4ohm or below), i heard of higher-end conventional speakers that dip down 2-3ohms(?)

Maybe someone with planar/electrostatic speakers could chime in if they tried horizontal bi-amping & with a similar amp as mine (which can operate in class-A at low wattage?)... I'd love to hear actual experiences

The thing is we don't need actual experience of your precise use-case to answer your questions.

If your amp is powerful enough and stable at 2-3 ohms you will get zero improvement from passive bi-amping.

End of story

 

[khaliss]

The thing is we don't need actual experience of your precise use-case to answer your questions.

If your amp is powerful enough and stable at 2-3 ohms you will get zero improvement from passive bi-amping.

End of story

dang, okay Sir!

 

[Vincent Kars]

see if the setup still sounds ultra clean, distortion-free

I don't expect much.
Normally a stereo amp is 1 PSU and 2 amps,
If you do horizontal bi-amping, you offload the tweeters from the amp driving the woofers. This wil reduce its load only marginally as tweeters don't consume much power. It still has to power 2 power hungry woofers. The other amp driving the tweeters is basically doing nothing.

If you go for vertical bi-amping, each amp driving a woofer and a tweeter, you seriously lowers the load. Both will also have a surplus on the PSU. If you want to play louder, vertical is the way to postpone clipping.

 

[khaliss]

yep, I have read about & watched quite a few videos regarding the differences between vert & horizontal bi-amping. & It does make a lot of sense to go vert (& I might later on) for most speakers. However, with large hybrid electrostats that can dip below 0.8ohms, maybe I try to go with the other option first.

I will expand on that reasoning later, after Im done with breakfast

 

[khaliss]

@Vincent Kars , I totally agree that vertical bi-amping is the way to go if the goal is maximizing raw volume, headroom, and balancing the power supply load across traditional speakers.

The reason I am choosing horizontal first for these ESL9s comes down to isolating the power supplies between the dual woofer section vs the electrostatic diaphragm. This particular amp operates in "Class-A" mode if it doesn't go over a certain threshold.

This is just me theorizing... but with vertical bi-amping, a single amp chassis is still pulling heavy double-duty (pushing high-current bass content while simultaneously trying to reproduce mid/high details on a highly capacitive panel that dips to 0.8 ohms). Heavy bass transients (on spirited listening, either it be from listening to tracks with high dynamic range or watching action movies) causes subtle power supply sag(?) which affects the mid/upper reproduction, if that makes sense.

By going horizontal, my goal is to "quarantine" the bass demands to one amplifier. The second amplifier handles nothing but the midrange and treble. Because it is entirely freed from pushing heavy woofer cones, its power supply stays silent & stress-free(?) Even though the panel's impedance drops below the claimed 0.8 ohms (according to Martin Logan)... music energy up in that range is still small. Because the Mid/High amp has a totally quiet, unstressed power supply, in theory it stays locked in the super-clean & low-distortion "Class-A" sweet spot at all times, perhaps(?)

Again, these are all just in my head... if none of this make actual sense, then hey I'm the one wasting time & resources =) That's fine though, I'd rather have the second E-406 amp doing something rather than sitting & collecting dust LOL

 

[khaliss]

No actual experience, just some opinion.. most times when I read about bi-amping it's an open shut case of not needed. These speakers actually present a case where you could profit from it. Not saying it's the case, it just looks like it to me. Then you have this massive class A box that can't be bridged.

Where's your priority? The nice speakers or that amp? If this is about the speakers, maybe ditch the amp for a proper active crossover solution. Or simply one amp / a dual mono / two monos / whatever is preferred that has no problem at all with the impedance challenge from these speakers. Hypex and Purifi come to mind.

I'm not in the habit of ditching gear (in this case, the amps in question) unless it's completely useless to me.... & I really do happen to like these amps a lot, I've pitted them against a couple of other amps (Emotiva BasX A1 monoblocks, etc) and this came out on top for me. Plus I have two... and them being manufactured by a relatively unknown Chinese company, I doubt they will attract buyers.

I try to make the most of what I have (optimizing?)... love to experiment on new things & learn at the same time, I don't take the hobby too seriously... so I try to keep within certain spending limits & remain with a casual approach =)

 

[Vincent Kars]

in theory it stays locked in the super-clean & low-distortion "Class-A" sweet spot at all times, perhaps(?)

Wonder if it works that way.
Wouldn't be surprised if the channel driving the woofer it will switch to B and the one driving the tweeter stay in A.