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Home Theater System

Adi777

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Hello everybody, I'm new here, and it's my first post. I build a house, and I want make a dedicated cinema room. I have speakers - Monitor Audio Gold 4G:
Central - C350, fronts - 300, rear - Gold FX, and back - 50. What do You think, these speakers are good for home cinema? Keep MA Gold, or maybe sell, and buy some better speakers? Maybe Genelec or Neumann - I saw here a photos with that speakers in cinema room. That "pro" speakers are better for home cinema vs "traditional" speakers? My cinema room will have dimensions 4m x 6m x 3m.

Greetings
 
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Triliza

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Hi and welcome. Do you have a projector or tv? I'm asking because a projector can add significantly to the home cinema experience. I have a cheap one (Benq ht2050a, bought it for about 600 euro on a black friday deal) and I'm very pleased with it. Something to consider if you are not all set in that front.

About audio, I don't think Amir has measured any of your speakers, but some other Monitor Audio models he measured were decent. What I personally would do if I were you is use what you already have, buy a sub, maybe two atmos speakers, and see how you like it, in terms of sound quality and adequate volume. What AVR do you have atm?

Now if you'd like to try something new, there are many possibilities and improvements to be done. It'd be helpful if you could post room dimension and what are you willing to spend, and some of the hc folks in here will surely advise you accordingly.
 
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Adi777

Adi777

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@Triliza Hey, no, I don't have projector or TV. I had Denon X4400H, but I sold, because I didn't using my speakers. My cinema room will be in room 1.5 This will be cinema room/gaming room. So, I think about projector for movies and TV for games. I think about 7.2.6 or 9.2.6 system, or maybe even four subwoofers - if that would be better with bass quality. I readed also about SBA and DBA system. Maybe it's better option?
 

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fitero

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I spent 20 years installing (among other things) Home Theater systems of all levels. I think a successful home cinema can be assembled with any speakers that you find appealing. In other words, buy speakers that you like the sound of and build a HC with them.

The "illusion" is further enhanced by having speakers installed in the correct positions in a room with some acoustic treatment. In other words, (in general) you can get a more successful illusion with a 11.1 system with cheaper speakers than you can get with a 5.1 system with much more expensive speakers. The Atmos effect speakers enhance the illusion enormously. These don't necessarily have to be expensive speakers or electronics. There are many well designed, affordable speakers available nowadays.

Acoustic room treatment is important. I've placed very expensive speakers in rooms with poor acoustics, and the resulting sound was horrible. Conversely, I've placed cheap ($500) speakers in rooms with effective acoustic treatments and the resulting sound for home cinema was marvelous.

Room color and light control is important as well. I attempted to cover walls with Pitch-black Velvet panels or matt black paints etc. in order to augment the video contrast. Dark colors (other than reds) help with this. This of course pertains to a dedicated cinema room.

Oh, and yes, your speakers will suffice. However, I am a proponent of lots of bass capacity. Placing 4, 30cm subwoofers in that room would not be overkill in my view. Yes, 1 would be enough. I think a lot depends upon neighbors and budget.
 

Vacceo

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I spent 20 years installing (among other things) Home Theater systems of all levels. I think a successful home cinema can be assembled with any speakers that you find appealing. In other words, buy speakers that you like the sound of and build a HC with them.

The "illusion" is further enhanced by having speakers installed in the correct positions in a room with some acoustic treatment. In other words, (in general) you can get a more successful illusion with a 11.1 system with cheaper speakers than you can get with a 5.1 system with much more expensive speakers. The Atmos effect speakers enhance the illusion enormously. These don't necessarily have to be expensive speakers or electronics. There are many well designed, affordable speakers available nowadays.

Acoustic room treatment is important. I've placed very expensive speakers in rooms with poor acoustics, and the resulting sound was horrible. Conversely, I've placed cheap ($500) speakers in rooms with effective acoustic treatments and the resulting sound for home cinema was marvelous.

Room color and light control is important as well. I attempted to cover walls with Pitch-black Velvet panels or matt black paints etc. in order to augment the video contrast. Dark colors (other than reds) help with this. This of course pertains to a dedicated cinema room.

Oh, and yes, your speakers will suffice. However, I am a proponent of lots of bass capacity. Placing 4, 30cm subwoofers in that room would not be overkill in my view. Yes, 1 would be enough. I think a lot depends upon neighbors and budget.
Quick question: 4 smaller subs or 2 washing-machine sized ones?

The ones I´m picturing right now are the push-pull configuration of the Perlisten subs. They seem to be engineering marvels.
 
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Adi777

Adi777

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Spędziłem 20 lat instalując (między innymi) systemy kina domowego na wszystkich poziomach. Myślę, że udane kino domowe można zmontować z dowolnymi głośnikami, które ci się podobają. Innymi słowy, kup głośniki, które Ci się podobają i zbuduj z nich HC.

„Iluzja” jest dodatkowo wzmocniona przez zamontowanie głośników w odpowiednich miejscach w pomieszczeniu z pewną poprawką akustyczną. Innymi słowy, (ogólnie) można uzyskać bardziej udaną iluzję z systemem 11.1 z tańszymi głośnikami niż z systemem 5.1 z dużo droższymi głośnikami. Głośniki z efektem Atmos ogromnie wzmacniają iluzję. Niekoniecznie muszą to być drogie głośniki czy elektronika. Obecnie dostępnych jest wiele dobrze zaprojektowanych, niedrogich głośników.

Akustyczna obróbka pomieszczenia jest ważna. Umieściłem bardzo drogie głośniki w pomieszczeniach o słabej akustyce, a dźwięk był okropny. I odwrotnie, umieściłem tanie (500 USD) głośniki w pomieszczeniach z efektywnymi zabiegami akustycznymi, a uzyskany dźwięk do kina domowego był cudowny.

Ważna jest również kontrola koloru i światła w pomieszczeniu. Próbowałem pokryć ściany panelami Pitch-black Velvet lub matowymi czarnymi farbami itp., aby zwiększyć kontrast wideo. Pomagają w tym ciemne kolory (inne niż czerwone). Dotyczy to oczywiście dedykowanej sali kinowej.

Aha, i tak, twoje głośniki wystarczą. Jestem jednak zwolennikiem dużej mocy basu. Umieszczenie 4, 30-centymetrowych subwooferów w tym pomieszczeniu nie byłoby moim zdaniem przesadą. Tak, 1 wystarczy. Myślę, że wiele zależy od sąsiadów i budżetu.
What do You think about SBA and DBA system?
 
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Adi777

Adi777

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Szybkie pytanie: 4 mniejsze subwoofery czy 2 wielkości pralki?

Te, które teraz wyobrażam, to konfiguracja push-pull subwooferów Perlisten. Wydają się być cudami inżynierii.
I have a lot of time to think about my system in the theater, but the Rythmik subwoofer looks very good, especially the Rythmik G25HP. Also JTR and PSA subwoofers.

PS I don't have neighbours very close ;)
 
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Galz

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Quick question: 4 smaller subs or 2 washing-machine sized ones?

The ones I´m picturing right now are the push-pull configuration of the Perlisten subs. They seem to be engineering marvels.
I'm not totally sure and the proper answer is probably "it depends", but I think in general as long as you get adequate subwoofers that are good value for money, then getting more subwoofers (splitting the budget between them) will normally be better than fewer more expensive subwoofers, as long as you can place them where they would provide a benefit.
 

Vacceo

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The idea of multiple subwoofers come from the intent to get an even and well-distributed sound in all listening positions. However, with a pair of two main towers capable of going really low (20 hz), wouldn´t that need for extra subwoofers be bypassed? Sure, going for infrasonic is perfectly possible for a good subwoofer, but there is not that much content of that nature and seems like overspending just for that does not make much sense.
 

FrantzM

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Room size is interesting. Any idea of total budget?
You are in Poland? Location determine availability and price thus, i would be good to know where you are.

These said :)...
Kneejerk reaction here, I apologize ... I am not too warm on Monitor Audio. I don't know the models you are referencing but... I haven't seen great measurements from their brethren. It is more than likely that there are better choice out there... e.g. the aforementioned Genelec and Neumann ;)since you seem to be in Europe
You should have kept the Denon 4400H. A more than decent unit with pre-out. I have its little brother the X-3400H and am pleased with it. Stay within the Denon Family, always a safe bet. I would suggest the X-3700H. There may be better units out there, maybe, but prices increase steeply. I would only move from Denon to Trinnov or Storm , those 2 are way above the $10,000.oo or Euros, and require external amplifiers. Seems to be an easy choice: Denon >= X-3700H.
Projector. I have the BenQHT2050A. It doesn't cease to amaze me. Cheap in price, surprising in performance but ... these days, OLED are getting bigger and less expensive. I am not sure that at this point in time any PJ, regardless of price can present a better picture than say an LG 83 inches C1. I am content with 83 inches... for now but find myself wanting a 100 inches diagonal OLED in my room , which is of similar size , although the MLP is at about 2.7 meters from the screen...

Now for speakers. You start with 4 subwoofers. yes... 4. These don't need to be the same or the best in a lineup. Again @sweetchaos Subwoofer Comparison Tool is super useful. IMO, HSU VTF-2-MK5 or SVS PB-1000 or RYhtmikl L12..
It would be good to consider acquiring a miniDSP 2x4 HD and a miniDSP UMik-1 as part of the deal. That will be one of the best $400 or Euros spent toward great music and lovies in your home.

And there comes the speakers... I believe it to be location dependent. If in the US, IMHO the 3 x JBL 708 for L, C, R, 2 x JBL 705 x 2 for Surround and a pair of JBL LSR305 for Atmos is very difficult to beat.
Denon AVR-X3700
3 x JBL 708 p
2 x JBL 705p
2 x JBL LSR-305
4 x Subwoofers (HSU VTF-2 MK5 or SS PB-1000 Pro or Rythmik L12)
1 x MiniDSP 2x4 HD
1 x miniDSP Umik-1


There are other choices worth considering but ... This system IMHO is SOTA for less than $20K. The budget in the USA would be close to $15,000.oo. The rest for room treatment from the usual sources, get the BenQ with a good screen or an OLED or QLED 83 inches or larger.

No! you are not done :D., you will have to make this work. Download REW, Download MSO and come back here to ask questions;)

And Welcome to ASR.
Witamy w ASR ;) .... thanks to Google Translate.

Peace
 
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Adi777

Adi777

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Any idea of total budget?
You are in Poland? Location determine availability and price thus, i would be good to know where you are.
Hey, yes, I am Polish. Now I live in Netherlands, but I build a house in Poland. How big is budget? I don't have idea now ;)
It's hard to say. I was speaking with company, which make acoustics in Poland, and now they make a project for me, so I'm sure that acoustic will be on high level. I don't need to make a sound and acoustics measurements, this company will do them.
Your proposition looks nice, but I want minimum 7.2.6 or 7.4.6, and how install JBL LSR-305 on ceiling?
I'm sure, that Denon X4400H or X4700H is not bad, but what with power amplifiers? I don't need it? Trinnov looks impressive, but maybe is to good for my speakers? :) I don't now.
I will be trying to sell my speakers, we will se.
 
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Vacceo

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For a system like that, you can get an Anthem AVM90 as processor (it will cover your channel requirements perfectly). For amps, I´d go for something from Audiophonics or Apollon. In fact, Apollon gives you the option of adding a rack mountable front plate. The maximum amount of channels you can get in Apollon is 12, but it is certainly possible to add extra amps till you reach the amount of channels you need and you can set the whole system in a rack, so you get a cleaner and tidier setup.
 

FrantzM

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Hi

Active speakers have their own amplifiers . You don't need amplifers. This system will play loud enough to permanently destroy your hearing :D, if you push too often... with little distortion ... If you want 7.4.6, you add more LSR 305speakers ..no amplification issues. The X-3700H can accommodate these... the miniDSP 2x4 HD, will optimize the 4 subwoofers and present these as one, unique subwoofer to the AVR where Audyssey and the APP or the stand-alone PC application (no personal experience) would integrate this "subwoofer" with the other speakers. People here will help you in configuring your system.
My system will follow a similar path. Already am using LSR308 (3) in LCR and (2) LSR 305 in surrounds... The LSR 308 then will be moved to surround and the LSR 305 to Atmos. LCR will be 708. Denon stays. More potent, better Subs will be added to my present (cheap) pair of subwoofers.
As for hanging speakers to the ceiling ... some exemples: Click here.

Peace.
 
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Adi777

Adi777

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W przypadku takiego systemu można uzyskać Anthem AVM90 jako procesor
Looks also very good, almost like Trinnov, but why is 2x more expensive than AVM70? I see, that AVM90 have 4 output for subwoofers, AVM70 have 2, so I can't have 4 subwoofers with AVM70? What about subwoofers with Denon X4700H or something like this? And what about HDMI? I want have the newest HDMI, I heard some amplifiers have problems with HDMI.
I'm sorry for that lot of questions, but I don't have experience with home cinema, and I want have really perfect cinema room :cool:
@FrantzM You listened Genelec, Neumann and JBL, and for You JBL are the best?
I have also one question more ;) Can any good processor - maybe Trinnov, Anthem, Storm, Lyngdorf - change the sound characteristics of my Monitor Audio so that they will sound better, more even, more neutral? It is possible?
 
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Vacceo

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No worries! I write a lot of questions too, that´s what the forum is for. :)

The increased price comes from the extra inputs for subwoofers, indeed; but Anthem has also improved the DAC´s on the 90 and it includes HDMI 2.1 (which is a must if you play videogames). The problems with the HDMI boards plagued early adopters such as Sound United (Denon & Marantz) during 2021; now in 2022 those issues seem to have been solved considering how manufacturers like Mcintosh, Denon, Marantz, or Yamaha have moved towards hdmi 2.1.
In the case of the AVM´s from Anthem, the extra price on the 90 includes the board while for the 70, you still have to pay for the upgrade. Is it worth the price increase? That is up to you, specially considering how the AVM70 is an excellent device (tested by Amir here in ASR!) at a super competitive price, but on a personal note, yes, I think the price increase is a bit too much.

Arc Genesis, the room equalization system for Anthem seems to be excellent after a year with a gazillon bugs (it seems that they have been fixed at the current moment). It can also integrate subwoofers with more ease than Dirac or Audyssey, but I cannot confirm it since I haven´t tried myself. With Audyssey, I can tell you that it is possible, but takes time and effort.

For years, AVR´s only had one subwoofer output. The trick to "duplicate" (or triplicate, cadruplicate...) it was using a miniDSP to plug the subwoofers to and adjust from there, then, run the calibration of the AVR once you have your subwoofers adjusted. It works, but again, it takes time and effort. That´s how you do it on a Denon without four subwoofer outputs.

Arc, Audyssey, Lingdorf, Dirac or any other equalization program will change how your speakers, Monitor Audio or any other manufacturer, perform. Do not expect miracles, though. All those systems adjust to an extent parameters like timing, phase, and most importantly, frequency reproduction. To a huge extent? Some more agressively than others, sure, but not to the point of making, let´s say, a Kef speaker, sound like a Bowers speaker.

In my experience, it is a better idea to use speakers with a performance in frequencies as flat as you can while you adjust the acoustics of your room to reduce peaks and dips in frequencies and then, once that´s done, run eq and fine tune your system.

And that is perhaps the crucial element. If the building is taking time, no matter what electronics and speakers you use, they will benefit from good acoustics in all cases. Since time is on your side, you can wait for better prices or new products on electronics and speakers.
 
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Adi777

Adi777

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@Vacceo Thank you for the answer :) You clarified the situation a bit ;) I will probably try to sell Monitor Audio and buy some active loudspeakers.
 

Vacceo

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@Vacceo Thank you for the answer :) You clarified the situation a bit ;) I will probably try to sell Monitor Audio and buy some active loudspeakers.
Then, no need to worry about amplification. Disregard my comments about Apollon and other amplifiers.
 

FrantzM

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@Adi777

Based on measurements alone. Some Genelec and Neumann are superior to the JBL 708 .. In the USA at least the Price differential makes of the 708 a serious proposition. The JBL 708 is about $2,000.oo each in the USA , the equivalent Neumann , the KH310A a is $2,500.oo, it is, perhaps, a slightly better speaker, but a LCR trio, in KH310 would be $7,500.oo. Keep in mind that the 708 can be made to measure as well as the Neumann, it has built-in DSP... so ...
Most people here , even the biggest Genelec fan would not say the 8341 is superior to the JBL 708 and these cost $3000.oo each, perhaps the 8351 ...at $4,000 each. The JBL 708 is likely to play louder than the KH 310 or the Genelec 8351. The value proposition of the 708, in the USA at least, is compelling. IMO a no-brainer. In Europe, Genelec and Neumann active speakers may cost less ...
For subwoofers, in spite of their decent performances, I'd stay away for subwoofers from Genelec, Neumann. Several brands provide better performance to cost ratio.

As for AVR.. I don't know much about the Arcam. I do like Audyssey and with the mobile App ($20.oo) or the PC application ($200.oo but infinitely more flexible). Audyssey is as good as they get. Some prefer Dirac or the Arc, but it seems so far to be based on anecdotes... and other preference scales ... No definitive proof. Additionally, IME, the "Dynamic EQ" feature is a necessity for any audio or movie system; curiously, it seems to be pretty unique: No other DRC solution from any AVR manufacturer or otherwise, that I know of, has anything resembling it , perhaps the Lyngdorf' room EQ (?). Not sure about that last one.
The Trinnov is extraordinary flexible but DRC would not magically make of any speaker a superlative performer, perhaps it will extract more from it but... if the fundamentals are flawed, so will the results ... Trinnov with the 708 would be a dream.. actually JBL sells a re-badged version of the Trinnov the SDP-75 I believe... for a bit more than the Trinnov ... North of $17,000.oo. I am not sure the Monitor Audio are worth it ;).
Be forewarned. MSO will make your subs as flat as it is physically possible in your room but it takes a long while to master.. It is worth the time that you will certainly have to invest but ...

Peace.
 
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Adi777

Adi777

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What's this? Okey, I found - Multi-Sub Optimizer ;)
In Poland three Neumann KH 310 costs about 25 000 polish money, it's about 5500 Euro.
JBL have DSP, Neumann not, it's important in home cinema?
 
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Adi777

Adi777

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LCR trio, in KH310
I don't understand something. In shops, I see model Left and Right, what about center?
What do You think, is KH80 enough for rear, back and Atmos speakers, or better buy KH120?
 
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