Home theater receiver options...everything seems to have compromises this year...thoughts? recommendations?

[funnychap]

Yes i was going to buy the 3800 but can't because of the review here. It will always play on my mind. The 4800 is too expensive and the 4700 dac got changed which also I read here. Not gonna buy any other avr without Auro3D. So have decided to wait till next year's releases and hoping for a positive recommendation from asr.

auro3D has no content in the US.
also to fully appreciate auro3d, u need a 13 channel receiver .

 

[funnychap]

You said the key words here that most people don't understand. These words are golden:

"In summary, it's better to have a great 5.1 setup than a poor/mediocre setup beyond 5 speakers (for Dolby Atmos or DTS:X)."

here’s the order people should strive for: a great setup in 5.1, 5.2 (2 identical subwoofers), 5.2.2 (2 atmos), 5.2.4 (4 atmos)

if u have 2 ft behind your couch, then go for this order:

7.1, 7.2 (2 identical subwoofers), 7.2.2 (2 atmos), 7.2.4 (4 atmos)

 

[Ssmokeyy]

Pass on denon/marantz there just greedy right now. Anthem mrx740 would be amazing in your setup. Integra drx 8.4 could handle your speakers also. I own the drx 8.4 sound is amazing. Has everything u could want. If u want to save money u could get a drx 5.4 with a basx a3 amp for the front 3. I install anthem avr/avp gear. Anthem arc is great. Sound quality is amazing. Anthem does run hot but there built like tanks. Nad t778 is good but for the new price tag it missing things I would need that the Anthem/integra have. The integra 8.4 runs cold for me. After 40 mins still no fans on. Emotiva is close with there new hdmi 2.1 models also. My rule is I'd your spending over 2k it has to be great. I really wanted a marantz part this year but it was a let down for me plus the way there cutting frequencies just makes me sick.

 

[funnychap]

Pass on denon/marantz there just greedy right now. Anthem mrx740 would be amazing in your setup. Integra drx 8.4 could handle your speakers also. I own the drx 8.4 sound is amazing. Has everything u could want. If u want to save money u could get a drx 5.4 with a basx a3 amp for the front 3. I install anthem avr/avp gear. Anthem arc is great. Sound quality is amazing. Anthem does run hot but there built like tanks. Nad t778 is good but for the new price tag it missing things I would need that the Anthem/integra have. The integra 8.4 runs cold for me. After 40 mins still no fans on. Emotiva is close with there new hdmi 2.1 models also. My rule is I'd your spending over 2k it has to be great. I really wanted a marantz part this year but it was a let down for me plus the way there cutting frequencies just makes me sick.

Since 2000, I've had several brands and there are some that I would/would not buy again.

RECEIVERS:
1. Onkyo: NO. They ran hot and killed the HDMI output. Center channel volume was low and not clear.

2. Denon: Own a 1912, S760H, X3700H. Good for the price, reliable and has the features but the features are not great. Movies (I rate 3/5), 2-channels music (I rate 2/5). Their focus is features (basically a sales checklist), not sound quality.

3. Arcam: Own Arcam AVR5. Their focus is sound quality. Great clarity and power even though the watts are advertised low. It's the great power supply, ESS Sabre 9026Pro dac, high quality components. Movies (I rate 5/5), 2-channels music (I rate 4/5). Runs hot but it's been reliable for a year so far.
In 5/2023, I improved the music quality closer to a realistic performance by buying the Denafrips Ares II 12th dac instead of using the Arcam's dac by ESS (sounds really good but Delta-Sigma dacs don't sound like a live performance).

AMPLIFIERS:
1. Emotiva BasX-A3 (good for movies 3/5 but bad for music 2/5). Lacks dynamic range and clarity so not good for LCR. Has power so I relegated it to my surround L and R speakers. Their focus is a cheap price.
2. Parasound Zonemaster 2 (good for movies 4/5, good for music 4/5). Their focus is sound quality.
3. Parasound 2250 V.2 (great for movies 5/5, great for music 5/5). Wide, deep and 3D live soundstage. Their focus is sound quality.

 

[Ssmokeyy]

Every brand has problems. Onkyo/integra give u greats products. Denon/marantz is behind right now. They only jumped on the dirac train becuase of onkyo.

 

[Vacceo]

Primate responded to a comment I sent them some days ago.

Currently, their SP receiver does not work with DLBC but they are working on how to implement it. Nothing confirmed, though.

I don't really understand the logic of implementing Dirac in a new product without a path to DLBC and perhaps, ART.

 

[Jon AA]

Don't upmix, upmixing is incorrect when I hear the phantom's voice in the movie 'phantom of the opera' in the height speakers. Just play the movie as recorded whether it's 5.1 or 7.1 or Atmos or DTS:X

Actually most concert halls/opera houses/performance venues have acoustic reflectors above the stage designed to project sound to the audience. So if you were there in person you certainly would hear a large chunk of the sound coming from well above the performers themselves. In my experience, Auromatic with front height speakers replicates this effect most accurately and provides an experience significantly more "like being there" than the ground level speakers can alone.

For anybody who enjoys listening to this sort of music (vs a studio recording with somebody whispering into a mic), I would strongly advise not dismissing the upmixers when making a decision.

 

[tuga]

Actually most concert halls/opera houses/performance venues have acoustic reflectors above the stage designed to project sound to the audience.

I'm not an acoustis engineer but I am almost certain that those deflector panels are directing the sound to the rear seats of the audience.
I've used something similar on the side walls of a lecture hall many years ago, to re-direct speach towards the centre of the audience (the floor plan was elliptical shaped):

 

[Jon AA]

I'm not an acoustis engineer but I am almost certain that those deflector panels are directing the sound to the rear seats of the audience.

That's certainly one of their primary purposes, but not the only one. They don't reflect like laser beams. Here they talk about even the musicians on the stage being able to hear the difference (just one example):

 

[tuga]

That's certainly one of their primary purposes, but not the only one. They don't reflect like laser beams. Here they talk about even the musicians on the stage being able to hear the difference (just one example):

Yes, the ones above the stage are needed for the musicians to hear themselves and one another, a bit like stage monitors in amplified gigis.
Probably because the opera hall is not a very good (acoustic) design. Perhaps a case of form over function?

 

[dlaloum]

Yes, the ones above the stage are needed for the musicians to hear themselves and one another, a bit like stage monitors in amplified gigis.
Probably because the opera hall is not a very good (acoustic) design. Perhaps a case of form over function?

The original scandinavian designer was sacked half way through the construction of the Sydney Opera House, and replaced by the architects chosen by "conservatives".

His interior design was never implemented - so we have a modernist exterior, with an interior originating in the late 19th century....

Sad really

 

[Martin S.]

I am afraid my onkyo 1008 hdmi board problems might force me buying a new avr.

I have been successfully refluxing it till now, but symptoms become worse and worse

For this reason I have been following this and similar fora closely. Denon, arcam, onkyo, nad? Lately I have seen many interesting things on Primare in particular their new spa25 und soon to be launched sp25, sp35.
Www.Primare.net

Any opinions, experience on Avr’s from this brand?

 

[dlaloum]

I am afraid my onkyo 1008 hdmi board problems might force me buying a new avr.

I have been successfully refluxing it till now, but symptoms become worse and worse

For this reason I have been following this and similar fora closely. Denon, arcam, onkyo, nad? Lately I have seen many interesting things on Primare in particular their new spa25 und soon to be launched sp25, sp35.
Www.Primare.net

Any opinions, experience on Avr’s from this brand?

Same problem with my Integra DTR70.4 (same generation...) - I ended up going for an Integra DRX 3.4, and adding external power amps - the combo gives me 5.1.4 with Dirac, and the results have been excellent... although the 3.4 could not drive my mains properly, it has been doing an excellent job as a prepro, and driving surrounds and heights.

If you want a single box solution the RZ70/8.4/LX805 seem to be the best alternative.

I did have Denon's on my shortlist, but the amp weaknesses are similar (so would still need an external power amp) and price was substantially higher. (Others were on the wishlist, but did not provide adequate value for money.... JBL, Arcam, Anthem, NAD)

 

[peng]

I did have Denon's on my shortlist, but the amp weaknesses are similar (so would still need an external power amp) and price was substantially higher. (Others were on the wishlist, but did not provide adequate value for money.... JBL, Arcam, Anthem, NAD)

I am not aware of any AVRs, regardless of price and brands, that are truly rated for 4 Ohm nominal speakers (let alone those with low dips) without caveat. The flagship models such as the X8500H, A110, A1H, SR8015, and the Onkyo/Integra flagship (NAD no longer has a real flagship class AVR based on the T778's specs and measurements) can do the job under most conditions but even those are not really 4 Ohm rated, and they were only rated that way based on the use of the lower impedance settings, and we all know such settings would impose some sort of limits.

 

[dlaloum]

I am not aware of any AVRs, regardless of price and brands, that are truly rated for 4 Ohm nominal speakers (let alone those with low dips) without caveat. The flagship models such as the X8500H, A110, A1H, SR8015, and the Onkyo/Integra flagship (NAD no longer has a real flagship class AVR based on the T778's specs and measurements) can do the job under most conditions but even those are not really 4 Ohm rated, and they were only rated that way based on the use of the lower impedance settings, and we all know such settings would impose some sort of limits.

Past generations of Onkyo/Integra flagships were not really rated for 4ohm with dips well below, but in practice handled such speakers well (from my personal experience).

It appears likely that the current Onkyo/Integra/Pioneer flagships may have similar capabilities.... I am waiting to see some proper measurements!

 

[peng]

Past generations of Onkyo/Integra flagships were not really rated for 4ohm with dips well below, but in practice handled such speakers well (from my personal experience).

So, you agreed with me this time, as I said "...can do the job under most conditions....", and they are not really rated 4 ohms.

It appears likely that the current Onkyo/Integra/Pioneer flagships may have similar capabilities.... I am waiting to see some proper measurements!

Me too, would be nice to see measurements, though it is tough to define what would be "proper" measurements. I would certainly want to the reviewer, such as Amir, to actually tell us the duration of the tests when measurement output power into 4 ohm and below.

We have had this conversation before and I tried to make the point that it doesn't mean much to say whether an amp can drive certain speakers that have low impedance dips (such as down to below 2 ohms), without seeing the curves. A spec that says 4 ohm nominal with dip to 1.7 ohm doesn't mean a whole lot because there is a huge difference between a curve that shows a dip in the range between 30 and 35 Hz, and a dip between 50 and 100 Hz, the latter being much worse for an amp.

Here's one example for others who may be interested in the topic using an integrated amp (specs pasted below). Take a look of what I would consider a real 4 ohm rated amp, based on its published spec:

One may say, okay that's an amp that doubles down so must be good for low impedance, but it doubles down at the expense of higher THD. It is not that it matters practically speaking, but in theory it really isn't truly double down capable is it, if we add the caveat, all else being equal, or ..but at higher distortions level.

Also, while the amp clearly is capable of higher current than a 150 W flagship AVR such as the Onkyo/Integra flagship being discussed, for practical use, it isn't really more powerful, and it is $6,500 listed amp (that's $100/lb for 65 lbs) vs the $3,200, 50 lbs Integra DRX. So, again, my point is there aren't any truly 4 ohm rated AVRs (that we agreed), but it is almost true that there aren't any/(or too many, to be more accurate) truly 4 ohm rated integrated amps, though there are probably a few if one looks hard enough.

Yet, most would agree that amps such as the PMA-SX1 will be capable to drive 4 ohm speakers that have dips below 2 ohms, but the caveat is, as always, at what spl at what distance and for how long!!

The moral of the story is, we really can't generalize whether an amp, or worse, brand can drive low impedance speakers, as it depends much more on merely a few simple specs of the amps and speakers in question.

By the way, the 100 W 4 ohm rated integrated 2 channel amp is 15 lbs heavier than the 9 channel Integra AVR, both are class AB type, so much for those who believe in weight being the best indicator!!

KEY SPECIFICATIONS - PMA-SX1 LIMITED​

Power amplifier section

Rated power	50 W + 50 W （8Ω、20 Hz ～ 20 kHz、THD 0.1 %） 100 W + 100 W （4Ω、1 kHz、THD 0.7 %）
Total harmonic distortion	0.01% rated output at -3 dB, 8 Ω load, 1 kHz
Output terminal	Speaker: Load 4~16 Ω
Input sensitivity / input impedance	EXT. PRE: 0.7 V / 25 kΩ gain value: 29 dB

The Denon amp is my favorite example, as it is one of the most expensive non exotic mass market brand amp on per pound weight basis that shows weight, power, and current are not a reliable indicator on the ability to drive difficult loads when taken in isolation. It is almost silly to say things like, high current amp, power hungry speakers, or "its not power, but current, that is important to drive some xyz speakers. The fact is, for speakers, we need to see the impedance and phase angle curves, and for amplifiers, we need to know the voltage and current limits, impedance of the test load, along with test duration for those related bench test measurements. At a given known test load impedance, at least two of the 3, i.e. power, voltage and current, must be known, in order to assess the amp's drive capability.

 

[Ssmokeyy]

I would recommend the pioneer 505 or integra drx 5.4. Bigger amps but not the cost of the 8.4 805 models

 

[ban25]

So, you agreed with me this time, as I said "...can do the job under most conditions....", and they are not really rated 4 ohms.

Me too, would be nice to see measurements, though it is tough to define what would be "proper" measurements. I would certainly want to the reviewer, such as Amir, to actually tell us the duration of the tests when measurement output power into 4 ohm and below.

Beyond the raw measurements, it would be interesting to see if the thermal protection circuit has been re-designed.

 

[Dobbyisfree]

I am not aware of any AVRs, regardless of price and brands, that are truly rated for 4 Ohm nominal speakers (let alone those with low dips) without caveat. The flagship models such as the X8500H, A110, A1H, SR8015, and the Onkyo/Integra flagship (NAD no longer has a real flagship class AVR based on the T778's specs and measurements) can do the job under most conditions but even those are not really 4 Ohm rated, and they were only rated that way based on the use of the lower impedance settings, and we all know such settings would impose some sort of limits.

Worth noting that the Emotiva MR-1 "class H" amplification does specifically mention 4Ω power figures; suggesting it could be quite capable.

 

[peng]

Worth noting that the Emotiva MR-1 "class H" amplification does specifically mention 4Ω power figures; suggesting it could be quite capable.

Could be, and if so, it would be among the few (if you can name another one) that is truly "4 Ohm" rated without those silly impedance settings.