Home theater and listing space in an open concept floor.

[propeller0614]

Overview

I'm trying to get home theater and listing in a 14x18 room that's attached on one of the 14' sides to the rest of the first floor. Planning on putting a fair amount of acoustic treatment in the room to make it less boomy.

Audio System Design

• Main L/R & Center: A Directiva speaker (R1 with passive crossover mod, R2, or Denotiva) for the front channels.
• Surrounds: MK402X speakers for the rear and side surrounds.
• In-Ceiling Speakers: Not sure
• Subwoofers:
  • Coffee Table: A pair of RSS390HF-4 (ported to 18 Hz) — integrated into a 28,800 cu.in. coffee table. WinISD is showing me getting -2.9 db down to 17.75Hz
  • Side Tables: 3 RSS265HF-4 each in a sealed enclosure
  • All subwoofers powered by 1200AS2 amplifiers.

System Goals

• Hit proper listing volume down at 20Hz, up to 20kHz.
• Dolby atmos support
• Nailing the price/performance curve, I know there are "better" speakers, or I could go full nuts with the monoprice receiver and a rack of amps, but that's not really practical for me.

I'm looking for some feedback on the system as a whole, suggestions for height channels that don't suck, and to make sure that all of the DSP works as I hope it would.

 

[Oddball]

Looks like most of the speakers are DIY, and unfortunately don't have much experience there. You would have to figure out desired MLP, SPL and distortion vs size of the first floor as you note listening space is open to it on one of 14ft sides to figure out if these speakers can take you where you want to be. Hope you are confident that coffee and side tables will not be shaking too much to be functional as tables. Also for Atmos you should first figure out if in ceiling or you want to wall mount bookshelves. In ceiling are generally considered better but not always possible as good ones are not very shallow (and even more expensive) I ended up with decent bookshelves for that reason.

In terms of positioning, I would try to place speakers along the other 14ft wall so that you get symmetrical soundstage for L and R side speakers. Your LCR would be shooting to the open space, but that might be better than having non symmetrically acoustical L and R side speakers if you flip the setup 90 degrees.

Lots of people are really happy with D&M AVRs especially after recent implementation of Dirac ART that seems to be working really well. Any model after 3800H will be able to handle 11 channels (albeit for 2 need external amps) and have 4 independent subs that would work for your setup (coffee table and 3 side tables). 3800H plus full dirac package would be some $2K. D&M has other higher channel models if needed for any future expansion, at higher prices. Additional external amps can be added if needed for e.g. SPL and low distortion, while still using AVR to power remaining channels.

If going processor route, probably the best for the price would be HTP-1 that as of recent also has Dirac ART package and some other advantages to D&M processors. You would need 11 channels of external amps and again which ones would depend on your SPL and distortion goals.

Did not mention higher end solutions like Storm or Trinnov, as most people are very happy with the above setups. Looks like interesting project and hope it will work well.

Overview

I'm trying to get home theater and listing in a 14x18 room that's attached on one of the 14' sides to the rest of the first floor. Planning on putting a fair amount of acoustic treatment in the room to make it less boomy.

Audio System Design

• Main L/R & Center: A Directiva speaker (R1 with passive crossover mod, R2, or Denotiva) for the front channels.
• Surrounds: MK402X speakers for the rear and side surrounds.
• In-Ceiling Speakers: Not sure
• Subwoofers:
  • Coffee Table: A pair of RSS390HF-4 (ported to 18 Hz) — integrated into a 28,800 cu.in. coffee table. WinISD is showing me getting -2.9 db down to 17.75Hz
  • Side Tables: 3 RSS265HF-4 each in a sealed enclosure
  • All subwoofers powered by 1200AS2 amplifiers.

System Goals

• Hit proper listing volume down at 20Hz, up to 20kHz.
• Dolby atmos support
• Nailing the price/performance curve, I know there are "better" speakers, or I could go full nuts with the monoprice receiver and a rack of amps, but that's not really practical for me.

I'm looking for some feedback on the system as a whole, suggestions for height channels that don't suck, and to make sure that all of the DSP works as I hope it would.

 

[propeller0614]

Looks like most of the speakers are DIY, and unfortunately don't have much experience there. You would have to figure out desired MLP, SPL and distortion vs size of the first floor as you note listening space is open to it on one of 14ft sides to figure out if these speakers can take you where you want to be. Hope you are confident that coffee and side tables will not be shaking too much to be functional as tables. Also for Atmos you should first figure out if in ceiling or you want to wall mount bookshelves. In ceiling are generally considered better but not always possible as good ones are not very shallow (and even more expensive) I ended up with decent bookshelves for that reason.

In terms of positioning, I would try to place speakers along the other 14ft wall so that you get symmetrical soundstage for L and R side speakers. Your LCR would be shooting to the open space, but that might be better than having non symmetrically acoustical L and R side speakers if you flip the setup 90 degrees.

Lots of people are really happy with D&M AVRs especially after recent implementation of Dirac ART that seems to be working really well. Any model after 3800H will be able to handle 11 channels (albeit for 2 need external amps) and have 4 independent subs that would work for your setup (coffee table and 3 side tables). 3800H plus full dirac package would be some $2K. D&M has other higher channel models if needed for any future expansion, at higher prices. Additional external amps can be added if needed for e.g. SPL and low distortion, while still using AVR to power remaining channels.

If going processor route, probably the best for the price would be HTP-1 that as of recent also has Dirac ART package and some other advantages to D&M processors. You would need 11 channels of external amps and again which ones would depend on your SPL and distortion goals.

Did not mention higher end solutions like Storm or Trinnov, as most people are very happy with the above setups. Looks like interesting project and hope it will work well.

Thanks for the reply.

Because of the layout of the home, the MLP is kind of determined for me, it's about 8.5' from one of the 14' walls (I'll need to double check those dimensions). I expect with any kind of reasonable sensitivity I'll be able to hit 90dB, but I'm hoping I'll be able to get to 110+ just for shits and giggles.

I figure I'll start with OCA A1 for digital room treatment to start with, but might move to ART if it's as good as they say.

I considered the HTP-1 and a rack full of amps, but space, budget, and settling for "good enough" turned me away from it as well as the higher end AVRs. I know I can get better measurements, but I figure I can upgrade it if I need to later down the line.


Is there a way of doing the room math (either with just dimensions or including room measurements) to make better educated guesses before dropping the coin?

 

[staticV3]

With four subs at your disposal, a dedicated miniDSP 2x4 HD running Multi Sub Optimizer as well as Bass EQ via ezBEQ is highly recommended.

Or just Bass EQ in case you switch to Dirac ART.

 

[Oddball]

Thanks for the reply.

Because of the layout of the home, the MLP is kind of determined for me, it's about 8.5' from one of the 14' walls (I'll need to double check those dimensions). I expect with any kind of reasonable sensitivity I'll be able to hit 90dB, but I'm hoping I'll be able to get to 110+ just for shits and giggles.

I figure I'll start with OCA A1 for digital room treatment to start with, but might move to ART if it's as good as they say.

I considered the HTP-1 and a rack full of amps, but space, budget, and settling for "good enough" turned me away from it as well as the higher end AVRs. I know I can get better measurements, but I figure I can upgrade it if I need to later down the line.


Is there a way of doing the room math (either with just dimensions or including room measurements) to make better educated guesses before dropping the coin?

Sure - forgot OCA solutions. I think he also has some MIMO solution in the new releases (MIMO is principle for decay cancelation etc. in ART as well). That is free. Dirac ART is actually really simple to set up which is currently my preference.

Not sure if you can do the full math for irregular/open spaces - but hopefully someone else might know better. You can do simple SPL calculator and see how that works for 8.5" distance to MLP given sensitivity and watts.

Hitting 110+ will be difficult - from memory loudest non-pro (and very expensive speakers like Perlisten S or Arendal 1528) can do that at your distance. For bed channels 105dB would be reference HT level, 115dB for subs. Both for peaks so the average would be around 15-20dB less. 100W amps for beds at 90dB speaker sensitivity could take you roughly to 105dB at your distance. Gets much more complicated - this is just a simple estimate that you probably don't need monster amps. But if wanting to play loud perhaps worth buying decent 3 channel amp for LCR with Denon AVR instead of cheap one for Atmos (that would just to get you to 11 channels you need).

 

[propeller0614]

Sure - forgot OCA solutions. I think he also has some MIMO solution in the new releases (MIMO is principle for decay cancelation etc. in ART as well). That is free. Dirac ART is actually really simple to set up which is currently my preference.

Not sure if you can do the full math for irregular/open spaces - but hopefully someone else might know better. You can do simple SPL calculator and see how that works for 8.5" distance to MLP given sensitivity and watts.

Hitting 110+ will be difficult - from memory loudest non-pro (and very expensive speakers like Perlisten S or Arendal 1528) can do that at your distance. For bed channels 105dB would be reference HT level, 115dB for subs. Both for peaks so the average would be around 15-20dB less. 100W amps for beds at 90dB speaker sensitivity could take you roughly to 105dB at your distance. Gets much more complicated - this is just a simple estimate that you probably don't need monster amps. But if wanting to play loud perhaps worth buying decent 3 channel amp for LCR with Denon AVR instead of cheap one for Atmos (that would just to get you to 11 channels you need).

I expect I'll be more than loud enough with just the integrated amps. If I decide to try and break the walls I will use the pre-outs and add my own amps. I'm considering the 4800 (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/denon-avr-x4800h-avr-review.42812/), but I feel like I'm missing something. The specs say 9.4 channels, but the back IO looks like it has enough outputs for all of the 7.4.4.

I think I'd be able to get to obscene loudness on the lower frequencys because of extra amp power, more drivers, and being mounted much closer. Rough calculation is 120 ish db without room gain. Not that I'll ever need to play that loud.

I've remeasured, and my room is on the short side of an 'L'. The inside leg is 9', the outside leg is 14' (mostly window), and the screen will be on the 18' wall that's the tip of the L. The rest of the house is along the length of the L and has plenty of hard surfaces

As a note, I'm kinda surprised that class D amps aren't more common in AVRs. A pile of those icepower 2 channel modules (80 or 125w) seems ideal for the application.

 

[Oddball]

I expect I'll be more than loud enough with just the integrated amps. If I decide to try and break the walls I will use the pre-outs and add my own amps. I'm considering the 4800 (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/denon-avr-x4800h-avr-review.42812/), but I feel like I'm missing something. The specs say 9.4 channels, but the back IO looks like it has enough outputs for all of the 7.4.4.

I think I'd be able to get to obscene loudness on the lower frequencys because of extra amp power, more drivers, and being mounted much closer. Rough calculation is 120 ish db without room gain. Not that I'll ever need to play that loud.

I've remeasured, and my room is on the short side of an 'L'. The inside leg is 9', the outside leg is 14' (mostly window), and the screen will be on the 18' wall that's the tip of the L. The rest of the house is along the length of the L and has plenty of hard surfaces

As a note, I'm kinda surprised that class D amps aren't more common in AVRs. A pile of those icepower 2 channel modules (80 or 125w) seems ideal for the application.

You need 2 external amps for 4800H to run 11 channels (7.4.4). Has only 9 internal amps. Thus my suggestion that instead of some cheap 2 ch amp for Atmos you do a decent 3 chanell for LCR. There is lots of discussion around 4800H vs 3800H on the forum. I guess the conclusion is that 4800H is a bit better if value proposition is acceptable to the buyer.

For the subs, will depend on your design and driver capability. 1.2kW is a reassuring power that can drive subs drivers to very high SPL - if they and enclosures can take it. I recently tried +5 to reference and subs turned to 90% output in 6000+ cft irregular room and it did about 130 db for the peaks. 4 subs, 6 13.8" drivers, dual driver subs with 1.2kW amps and single driver with 1 kW amp (subs in my signature). It was excruciating loud and exciting, but also unbearable to listen to for more than 10-15 min. Also interfered with hearing detail in rest of the range big time. My standard loudest output is -10dB to reference and subs at some 55-65% output between the gain on the subs and ART curve.

D class - yeah no idea why not more common in AVRs.

 

[propeller0614]

I've seen some mixed suggestions for center channels, some saying that a bookshelf is perfectly fine (would make my life easier), while others recommend the classic center channel design. Is there a consensus on what is a better option?

My understanding is that I can cross over my subwoofers around 80Hz as below that we have a difficult time localizing the audio.

For those that have built a theater already, what are some traps for new players that I should avoid?

 

[Oddball]

I've seen some mixed suggestions for center channels, some saying that a bookshelf is perfectly fine (would make my life easier), while others recommend the classic center channel design. Is there a consensus on what is a better option?

My understanding is that I can cross over my subwoofers around 80Hz as below that we have a difficult time localizing the audio.

For those that have built a theater already, what are some traps for new players that I should avoid?

Bookshelf will work as center channel if you can fit it under display. Many horizontal centers are actually problematic and not designed properly.

You can cross subs even higher - 100hz is usually not a problem.

Many traps but I guess planning is the way to avoid them - which is what you are doing.