Home room measurements

[Pareto Pragmatic]

There is a lot of good advice here, but let me chip in on learning your room, then suggest some options for what might work.

If you have speakers with known measurements, and a neutral enough source, then any deviations from the measurements are from your room.

Three measures: pointed straight into the room on the long axis, then the shorter sideways direction, then line them up corner to corner ( as close as you can). That will give you the three major sources of room modes. Beyond that for finer detail....

If you toe the speakers out, you will get more sidewall reflections, in will give fewer. Angle them down, then up. Move them closer to walls, further away (rear ports in particular) to see what the front wall does. Changes will show up, and you can figure things out pretty well. Particularly once you know the three major axis modes.

When you do that, keep in mind the opening in the room. Pointing the speakers towards openings reduces room reflections, and making first/etc reflections point towards openings also has an effect.

You can probably learn a lot about your room without measuring and playing with the speakers, but measuring makes things a lot easier to correct.

For your room, the problem being reflections, you will likely want a narrow radiation pattern. And elevated treble? I would avoid that, but in any case I see a high shelf in your future!

Looking at the room, I would very much like to either use the opening to the photo right, OR if those windows open ....

Speakers pointed at an open wall of windows cures a lot of ills, and I would personally 100% make that happen. But it does not look like a current option.

So for me, I would try a right side placement where the chair is, speakers on either side, with the closer to the window speaker being further out from the side wall. toe them so they are angled to bounce first reflections from both speakers to the opening on the right. And I would likely lift the speakers and angle them down just a bit.

I think that would give me a single spot that was pretty good, and a room filling sound for less focused listening.

Another option is to go with some weird omnidirectional speaker, something that uses reflections to produce an effect. I have no experience, so no opinion on that option. Other than it exists. But if you have a dedicated media room, maybe? Or some weird offering from B&O with room correction? I personally would need to demo such a thing, and would never try to predict behavior from measurements on such systems. But I am no expert, just someone with a lot of room issues and time to experiment.

Beautiful room btw, really. Enjoy!

 

[tengiz]

Ok - so we are giving up on taming the room.
And I guess that is what the speakers are hidden in the ceiling?
But if nothing can be visible, then just make sure that the sound has tone controls and call it a day.

Basically, yes. Or, another option, is smallish unassuming speakers on integrated stands, like Genelec 6040R. But it might be an overkill.

 

[Holmz]

Basically, yes. Or, another option, is smallish unassuming speakers on integrated stands, like Genelec 6040R. But it might be an overkill.

What is the goal for the room?
How will it be used, and by who/whom?
What is primarily being done in the room?
How important is Music/sound in the room?

 

[tengiz]

What is the goal for the room?
How will it be used, and by who/whom?
What is primarily being done in the room?
How important is Music/sound in the room?

Aside from the occasional live family music, electronic playback in that room is mostly for casual, recreational listening - primarily by yours truly, and mostly solo. There’s no need to set it up for anything resembling "critical listening". I already have a dedicated, well-treated space for that.

I appreciate you trying to help, but at this point, I’m not sure repeating it is all that useful.

 

[tengiz]

There is a lot of good advice here, but let me chip in on learning your room, then suggest some options for what might work.
....

Thank you!

B&O Omni - you mean the acoustic lens designs? I listened to those years ago, I was not very impressed . And also they are so beautiful, they would require rearranging the furniture to properly display them.

 

[jomo]

I have a room with similar issues as yours with 2.5+ walls of glass, a window behind one speaker, an opening behind the other speaker, parabolic coved ceilings, hard plaster walls, hard wood floors, tile fireplace, etc... No acoustic room treatments allowed. Even with carpets and soft furniture, the room had a very long decay and highly variable response below 500 Hz. General focus was not good because of all the reverberation.

The solution for me was not new speakers, It was using Dirac Live from a laptop with a calibrated mic and at least 9 measurement points. I suggest you try this out before changing any more loudspeakers. You could take Dirac Live for a test drive by purchasing an Onkyo/Pioneer/Integra AVR with DL from your local Best Buy. I use pre-outs & amp to power my main speakers, but it depends what speakers you are using. If DL doesn't fix the problem, return the AVR within the 15 day trial period.

 

[DanielT]

Basically, yes. Or, another option, is smallish unassuming speakers on integrated stands, like Genelec 6040R. But it might be an overkill.

Overkill? You mean that in terms of price you think it's more than you want to spend? The speakers themselves are most likely good in themselves.

About the price of the Genelec, if that's a sticking point, then some other small, cheaper, with narrow dispersion. Near-field placed, 3 ft or so from your listening position. At destop placement distance. The speakers directed towards you, toe in the speakers, classic triangle:


All this to try to maximize the direct sound energy from the speakers.

A listening chair and in front of it a table? Place the speakers on the table. Could that be something? Or speakers on a stand of course, if you don't need a table.

 

[tengiz]

Overkill? You mean that in terms of price you think it's more than you want to spend? The speakers themselves are most likely good in themselves.
...

What I meant is the point of diminishing returns in this room comes quickly - it’s not worth the effort or money. There isn’t much flexibility here. As I mentioned earlier, the layout is fixed to prioritize the view. The house - and this room in particular - was architected with that in mind.

Speaker placement is limited to corners or beside the large window, and only small ones would fit. The alternative is to stick with the ceiling speakers and eventually replace them. Somehow, the ceiling placement - close to the corners and firing down - turned out to be beneficial.

For reference, here’s the room layout:

The large window is along the bottom of the diagram, with another on the right side.
The curved feature in the upper left with its straight arms opens into a larger adjacent space.
The median of the 45-degree element in the upper right is a full-height brick wall.
The speakers shown are the ones installed in the ceiling.

 

[DanielT]

What I meant is the point of diminishing returns in this room comes quickly - it’s not worth the effort or money. There isn’t much flexibility here. As I mentioned earlier, the layout is fixed to prioritize the view. The house - and this room in particular - was architected with that in mind.

Speaker placement is limited to corners or beside the large window, and only small ones would fit. The alternative is to stick with the ceiling speakers and eventually replace them. Somehow, the ceiling placement - close to the corners and firing down - turned out to be beneficial.

For reference, here’s the room layout:

View attachment 466647

The large window is along the bottom of the diagram, with another on the right side.
The curved feature in the upper left with its straight arms opens into a larger adjacent space.
The median of the 45-degree element in the upper right is a full-height brick wall.
The speakers shown are the ones installed in the ceiling.

Aha. Hm, in the corners you say. That makes me think of Larsen speakers that are made to be placed against a wall, possibly in a corner. But that can make it worse for you because as you can see in the picture they are directed as they are. The direct sound can in your case then be directed towards the ceiling with a pair of those:


Best is probably, if you have time and opportunity, to try to fix a pair of better, (as good as it gets) in-ceiling speakers. However, there is probably a lot in what @Hear Here says: Frankly I think you'll be hard pressed to find ceiling or wall mounted speakers that sound anything better than mediocre. Imaging (a feature I highly prize) will inevitably be poor, but perhaps you'll find a system that sounds acceptable.

But parts for a pair better than you have now , in-ceiling speakers, DIY speakers around $500-$800. It should be a good DIY speaker for that kind of money. Tailored to fit you, placement of speaker drivers, how they are aimed/mounted and so on.

Or you can build DIY speakers tailored for your corners. With speaker drivers then directed towards your listening position. Corner placed speakers were really popular back in the days. Amplifies watts were expensive, plus in combination with low power handling speaker drivers, resulted in the corners having to help with acoustic boosting.It may also have been a popular interior design style, but I don't know anything about that.
Corner placement gives , as you know,a real acoustic boost:

A monitor with a flat frequency response in free space produces up to 6 dB higher sound level when placed against a solid wall. In a corner (two walls) this gain can be 12 dB. With three boundaries (corner close to ceiling) the gain can be +18 dB. This can be particularly seen at low frequencies.

Monitor Placement - Genelec.com

To create the ideal listening experience, several aspects need to be taken into account when placing the monitors within the listening space. First, you need to identify the listening area within the space and consider where the listener will be placed in relation to the space as well as the...

www.genelec.com

Some vintage corner speakers:

 

[caught gesture]

I like the idea of the Genelec speakers. You’ll have GLM to help optimise the sound. They are discrete and, depending on point of view, stylish. If you have to compromise sound quality for room aesthetics, then having speakers that are good to look at is a bonus!

 

[tengiz]

I have a room with similar issues as yours with 2.5+ walls of glass, a window behind one speaker, an opening behind the other speaker, parabolic coved ceilings, hard plaster walls, hard wood floors, tile fireplace, etc... No acoustic room treatments allowed. Even with carpets and soft furniture, the room had a very long decay and highly variable response below 500 Hz. General focus was not good because of all the reverberation.

The solution for me was not new speakers, It was using Dirac Live from a laptop with a calibrated mic and at least 9 measurement points. I suggest you try this out before changing any more loudspeakers. You could take Dirac Live for a test drive by purchasing an Onkyo/Pioneer/Integra AVR with DL from your local Best Buy. I use pre-outs & amp to power my main speakers, but it depends what speakers you are using. If DL doesn't fix the problem, return the AVR within the 15 day trial period.

Sure, the electronic EQ helps - but I haven’t seen it pull off any magic if the starting point is abysmal. In this particular room, the ceiling speakers are already powered by a Marantz receiver with Audyssey. It didn’t make much difference whether the correction was applied or not.

 

[jomo]

Sure, the electronic EQ helps - but I haven’t seen it pull off any magic if the starting point is abysmal. In this particular room, the ceiling speakers are already powered by a Marantz receiver with Audyssey. It didn’t make much difference whether the correction was applied or not.

I used Audyssey XT and it did a poor job with my reverberant living room, I ended up manually correcting the Audyssey EQ to my liking, even so, the sonic image was blurry and not cohesive. Dirac Live does a better job measuring (w/Umik-1) and adjusting the phase/EQ to provide a clearer, fuller sonic presentation. Obviously it can't change the issues of your room (nor my living room), but whatever it does, it improved the sound and clarity significantly. It may be worth a try.

 

[Pareto Pragmatic]

B&O Omni - you mean the acoustic lens designs? I listened to those years ago, I was not very impressed . And also they are so beautiful, they would require rearranging the furniture to properly display them.

Beosound 2, balance, or, A9 were my thoughts. Beolab 90 is not something I would suggest to anyone unless I knew they were quite wealthy, but they are pretty cool. And I believe it has room correction that works well according to one review I saw. The balance looks like a possibility for your room.

Not my thing, but room filling they are.

 

[tengiz]

Beosound 2, balance, or, A9 were my thoughts. Beolab 90 is not something I would suggest to anyone unless I knew they were quite wealthy, but they are pretty cool. And I believe it has room correction that works well according to one review I saw. The balance looks like a possibility for your room.

Not my thing, but room filling they are.

I meant something like Beolab 20. There also was an earlier multi-level speaker with a wider base - I don't remember the model - those were beautiful, elegant pieces of electronics, as expected from B&O, although they didn't sound that good to me.

In the end, none of B&O's products eventually ended up in my possession - except the ICEPower modules, but it wasn't their stunning looks that mattered with those

Also, as far as I understand B&O is all in with WISA? I am old school - unless it is absolutely necessary, or doesn't have a potential to be a problem, I avoid wireless in anything that has real time expectation.

 

[tengiz]

I used Audyssey XT and it did a poor job with my reverberant living room, I ended up manually correcting the Audyssey EQ to my liking, even so, the sonic image was blurry and not cohesive. Dirac Live does a better job measuring (w/Umik-1) and adjusting the phase/EQ to provide a clearer, fuller sonic presentation. Obviously it can't change the issues of your room (nor my living room), but whatever it does, it improved the sound and clarity significantly. It may be worth a try.

I've successfully dodged Dirac so far, perhaps it was not wise

 

[EPICURIOUS007]

The "listening position" during this exercise was roughly where the picture was taken from. And again, just to underscore it - I gave up on using this room for quality listening years ago. The location of the windows and the orientation of the house more or less dictate where the listening position should be visually or aesthetically, which means there’s no way to fix the strong first reflections without acoustic treatment.

Applying any acoustic treatment to wooden panels? That was a no-go for me

Her's the picture of the in-celinig speakers:
View attachment 466388

As I said - it’s an old 2-way Parasound pair. They don’t produce spectacular imaging or particularly impressive frequency response, but they sound balanced. There’s no disconnect between the imaging and the reverb or reflections.

i think the easiest/cheapest thing to do is to replace those ceiling speakers with one that has a flat but warm frequency response, avoid metal tweeters as with that room will make treble sound even harsher, i would try the polk R200, in expensive small enough to replace the parasounds, measures well and doesn't use a metal tweeter. and then perhaps hide a small sub away somewhere xover @ like 80hz. floor standers in that room with high ceilings and a lot of reflected surfaces might just be too much. my 2 cents i'm new and still learning.

 

[tengiz]

i think the easiest/cheapest thing to do is to replace those ceiling speakers with one that has a flat but warm frequency response, avoid metal tweeters as with that room will make treble sound even harsher, i would try the polk R200, in expensive small enough to replace the parasounds, measures well and doesn't use a metal tweeter. and then perhaps hide a small sub away somewhere xover @ like 80hz. floor standers in that room with high ceilings and a lot of reflected surfaces might just be too much. my 2 cents i'm new and still learning.

Right, I think that’s where I’m landing. I didn’t realize metal tweeters behaved like that, by the way. The bass from the ceiling speakers isn’t anything special, but the overall balance is tolerable.

It’s starting to feel like when you see a setup and think, there’s no way this measures well - no chance it sounds good - and yet, somehow it kind of works. Not impressive, but not offensive either. A weirdly okay outcome where everything lines up despite itself - and ends up being difficult to improve on, given the constraints, at least without a lot of effort for very little gain.

 

[Keith_W]

I didn’t realize metal tweeters behaved like that, by the way.

They don't. It's audiophile lore, and has been thoroughly debunked in multiple ASR threads. Whether a metal tweeter sounds "metallic" or not (usually described as sibilant, bright, etc.) is a matter of implementation and not an inherent property of the material.

 

[tengiz]

They don't. It's audiophile lore, and has been thoroughly debunked in multiple ASR threads. Whether a metal tweeter sounds "metallic" or not (usually described as sibilant, bright, etc.) is a matter of implementation and not an inherent property of the material.

Well, even the smallest contact between metal components can cause unpredictable behavior.

 

[Holmz]

They don't. It's audiophile lore, and has been thoroughly debunked in multiple ASR threads. Whether a metal tweeter sounds "metallic" or not (usually described as sibilant, bright, etc.) is a matter of implementation and not an inherent property of the material.

Why do silver wire sound bright and copper warm then ?