HiRes makes no sense?

[kemmler3D]

They do make sound through your dynamic loudspeakers. Just not the same sound that an electrostatic loudspeaker can reproduce.

But sometimes the medium itself also makes a difference. The snare drum at the start of Michael Jackson's "Billy Jean" (MFSL SACD) sounds unlike anything you've ever heard coming from CD.

On Heart's "Dreamboat Annie" MFSL SACD the eponymous track projects a sound stage hundreds of meters in width and kilometers deep. It's like you're really standing near a lake. Nothing on CD I ever heard could produce an effect like that.

As you have probably noticed the membership here is single-mindedly focused on quantifying differences in audio.

To that end, it would be really interesting, if you have the time, to rip the discs and run both versions through the free app Deltawave and post the results. That way we can literally see what you're talking about.

 

[MAB]

They do make sound through your dynamic loudspeakers. Just not the same sound that an electrostatic loudspeaker can reproduce.

But sometimes the medium itself also makes a difference. The snare drum at the start of Michael Jackson's "Billy Jean" (MFSL SACD) sounds unlike anything you've ever heard coming from CD.

On Heart's "Dreamboat Annie" MFSL SACD the eponymous track projects a sound stage hundreds of meters in width and kilometers deep. It's like you're really standing near a lake. Nothing on CD I ever heard could produce an effect like that.

My CD of Dreamboat Annie the soundstage is hundreds of miles wide and one parsec deep. Your system is probably just not resolving enough.

 

[Ropeburn]

They do make sound through your dynamic loudspeakers. Just not the same sound that an electrostatic loudspeaker can reproduce.

But sometimes the medium itself also makes a difference. The snare drum at the start of Michael Jackson's "Billy Jean" (MFSL SACD) sounds unlike anything you've ever heard coming from CD.

On Heart's "Dreamboat Annie" MFSL SACD the eponymous track projects a sound stage hundreds of meters in width and kilometers deep. It's like you're really standing near a lake. Nothing on CD I ever heard could produce an effect like that.

So you're saying only electrostatic speakers, not dynamic ones, can faithfully reproduce what dynamic microphones captured before? Which is the same as a speaker?

 

[Chrispy]

Too bad electrostatic speakers can't play at realistic volumes generally or handle lower bass. I do like them once you find the sweet spot, tho.

ps If the SACD is that different from the CD, it's probably a different mix/master.

 

[Sal1950]

DSD sounds vastly better than Red Book CD and can reproduce sounds CD simply cannot.

So which DSD do I need for that vastly better sound?

DSD64 (Single-Rate): 2.8224 MHz (64 × 44.1 kHz
DSD128 (Double-Rate): 5.6448 MHz (128 × 44.1 kHz)
DSD256 (Quad-Rate): 11.2896 MHz (256 × 44.1 kHz)
DSD512 (Octuple-Rate): 22.5792 MHz (512 × 44.1 kHz)
DSD1024: 45.1584 MHz (1024 × 44.1 kHz)

Many places have options available at ever increasing price.
OR since day #1 has it All been a snake-oil story from Sony to grab more money from the gullible?
I really kinda think so.

My CD of Dreamboat Annie the soundstage is hundreds of miles wide and one parsec deep. Your system is probably just not resolving enough.

Oh My, now I understand, that must be it!

 

[RexrothPigeon]

Chum in the water

 

[CDMC]

My CD of Dreamboat Annie the soundstage is hundreds of miles wide and one parsec deep. Your system is probably just not resolving enough.

You system must not be very revealing. Mine has a soundstage 9 billion light years wide and deep. Unfortunately as a result, instruments towards the back of the soundstage are sometimes an octave or more out of tune from those in the front due to redshift (Doppler). Fortunately, I have implemented autotune to correct this.

 

[LTig]

You system must not be very revealing. Mine has a soundstage 9 billion light years wide and deep. Unfortunately as a result, instruments towards the back of the soundstage are sometimes an octave or more out of tune from those in the front due to redshift (Doppler). Fortunately, I have implemented autotune to correct this.

My system is much more revealing than yours, sorry to say. It reveals that the soundstage ends at the upper limit of the atmosphere, due to no media for sound to travel any farther.

 

[Ropeburn]

My system is much more revealing than yours, sorry to say. It reveals that the soundstage ends at the upper limit of the atmosphere, due to no media for sound to travel any farther.

Imagine how it must sound underwater. Never have you heard such a depth and transients that fast. Group delay becomes meaningless as well!

 

[sq225917]

Go to 2l.no and download their dsd/pcm sample files, same recording chain, same volume level, no mastering applied.

 

[bigpilot]

So which DSD do I need for that vastly better sound?

DSD64 (Single-Rate): 2.8224 MHz (64 × 44.1 kHz
DSD128 (Double-Rate): 5.6448 MHz (128 × 44.1 kHz)
DSD256 (Quad-Rate): 11.2896 MHz (256 × 44.1 kHz)
DSD512 (Octuple-Rate): 22.5792 MHz (512 × 44.1 kHz)
DSD1024: 45.1584 MHz (1024 × 44.1 kHz)

Many places have options available at ever increasing price.
OR since day #1 has it All been a snake-oil story from Sony to grab more money from the gullible?
I really think kinda think so.


Oh My, now I understand, that must be it!

DSD64 since that's the format used on SACD and the only format you can realistically buy. All other formats are mostly used in studios.

 

[Mart68]

They do make sound through your dynamic loudspeakers. Just not the same sound that an electrostatic loudspeaker can reproduce.

But sometimes the medium itself also makes a difference. The snare drum at the start of Michael Jackson's "Billy Jean" (MFSL SACD) sounds unlike anything you've ever heard coming from CD.

On Heart's "Dreamboat Annie" MFSL SACD the eponymous track projects a sound stage hundreds of meters in width and kilometers deep. It's like you're really standing near a lake. Nothing on CD I ever heard could produce an effect like that.

Just different mastering. MFSL's trick is to boost both bass and top end. Do that to the CD using your EQ and you'll get the same thing.

Ascribing what you're experiencing solely to the format has to be incorrect, because it's simply not possible.

 

[killdozzer]

This article states that HiRes makes no sense and is only useful for mastering and production.

"the SACD version of a recording can sound substantially better than the CD release. It's not because of increased sample rate or depth but because the SACD used a higher-quality master. When bounced to a CD-R, the SACD version still sounds as good as the original SACD and better than the CD release because the original audio used to make the SACD was better."

IMHO this is rubbish. DSD sounds vastly better than Red Book CD and can reproduce sounds CD simply cannot.

But it really is true. Everything said there is true. BTW, DSD is not that highly respected, but that's beside the point.

I'm not so hard on SACD and Hi-Res since I like to point out that it's useful for recording multichannel. Red Book is more than enough for lossless stereo, but I think it's not enough for lossless multichannel (depending on several factors).

 

[Ropeburn]

Just different mastering. MFSL's trick is to boost both bass and top end. Do that to the CD using your EQ and you'll get the same thing.

Ascribing what you're experiencing solely to the format has to be incorrect, because it's simply not possible.

Really? They do a simple V-EQ and then sell that as super high res special audiophile edition for good money? Is that how they operate?

 

[Mart68]

Really? They do a simple V-EQ and then sell that as super high res special audiophile edition for good money? Is that how they operate?

They remaster which involves changing the FR, same as all the re-issue houses. There's a thread on SHF (don't ask me to find it!) where someone posts up lots of FR scans of various re-masterings, the usual albums by the usual suspects. All different. MFSL boost bass and top on all of theirs.

I suspect that's especially helpful when using an electrostatic speaker as they tend to roll off early at both ends and lack mid-bass too.

 

[krabapple]

They do make sound through your dynamic loudspeakers. Just not the same sound that an electrostatic loudspeaker can reproduce.

But sometimes the medium itself also makes a difference. The snare drum at the start of Michael Jackson's "Billy Jean" (MFSL SACD) sounds unlike anything you've ever heard coming from CD.

Really now?

Anyway, the Mofi is a different mastering.
Have you grasped that concept yet?
You have to *rule out* the mastering as a factor before you can make a claim about the format being the cause of the sound.

Your claims won't have any credibility on a science-centered forum until you do grasp that concept.

On Heart's "Dreamboat Annie" MFSL SACD the eponymous track projects a sound stage hundreds of meters in width and kilometers deep. It's like you're really standing near a lake. Nothing on CD I ever heard could produce an effect like that.

Yeah, whatever. Again, mastering is what matters.

 

[danadam]

Go to 2l.no and download their dsd/pcm sample files, same recording chain, same volume level, no mastering applied.

If you mean their test bench at https://www.2l.no/hires/ , then for a long time now there is nothing there anymore. One could maybe salvage something from https://web.archive.org/

 

[Sal1950]

Red Book is more than enough for lossless stereo, but I think it's not enough for lossless multichannel (depending on several factors).

Details please, I'd like to follow your thinking on that.

If you mean their test bench at https://www.2l.no/hires/ , then for a long time now there is nothing there anymore. One could maybe salvage something from https://web.archive.org/

Things have changed a bit over there. I went to look at the variety of DSD files they used to offer for their albums and found on many latest they don't offer
any DSD at all? Maybe due to the booming popularity of multich they're cutting options? They're pushing more straight DXD now, which is simply PCM running at the insane speed of 352.8kHz/24bit in flacs, Stereo and 5.1, a big handful of Atmos mixed options, they even still offer those lossy MQAs.
Much of the DSD catalog seems to have been archived on the NativeDSD ?

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[killdozzer]

Details please, I'd like to follow your thinking on that.

Gladly. But it's gonna be a deep dig. I remember it was few years back when we talked about these Hi-Res and SACD topics. In short, it all boils down to how much space you have in a specific "container". You can record an hour of lossless on a Red Book if it's stereo, but if you have lossless multiple channels, you need more space.

 

[Sal1950]

Gladly. But it's gonna be a deep dig. I remember it was few years back when we talked about these Hi-Res and SACD topics. In short, it all boils down to how much space you have in a specific "container". You can record an hour of lossless on a Red Book if it's stereo, but if you have lossless multiple channels, you need more space.

Sure, file size, channel numbers, playback media capability are all big considerations.
I was looking at your post from a bit different angle, sound quality. My thought being that IMHO RedBook is totally transparent so whether 2 or 25 channels 16/44.1 would still be sufficient. But mostly since the multich boom has starting in the last decade and public perception is "HiRez is better", every multich medium I aware of is using something faster than RedBook. Which isn't a bad thing unless, like you say, file size becomes a issue. 24/48 lossless for Atmos is just fine to me, 24/96 as used for a lot of 5.1 flac file downloads now is just perfect.. Certain music labels are pushing DXD 352.8 kHz/24 or 32bit at extra cost which is just an insane waste of space & pure snake oil IMHO.