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HiRes FOMO - Am I really missing anything?

I think we need to put that study into perspective:
  • Each comparison (44.1 vs 88.2, 88.2 vs downsampled, 44.1 vs downsampled) was only repeated four times per listener
  • The graph you show only reports the results for 13 of 16 listeners. They deliberately excluded three listeners' results because they deemed them significant of selecting the opposite of the correct choice. That is a weird way of excluding results which, in essence, simply didn't fit their narrative
  • When accounting for all 16 listeners, only the Orchestra results for 44.1 vs 88.2 were significant
  • Dividing relatively small sample sizes into more and more sub-groups runs into the multiple comparisons problem
  • The XYZ vs downsampled comparisons essentially tell us only if the specific algorithm used in Pyramix 6 performs well
Overall, the study is designed decently well, but there's a couple of additional caveats. First and foremost, there appear to be no checks of the actual performance of the ADC, software filter or playback system. So they didn't even check once how the frequency response looks. One funny example is that they report that their speakers can reproduce up to 33 kHz based on the spec sheet, but as far as I could find their amp rolls off past 22 kHz (again: based on specs) :cool:

I would not exclude that effects like IMD or maybe a non-ideal filter in their software could have lead to audible effects. And there is a tiny trend emerging from the data which might indicate that. But to me, especially the weird decision to analyze three of the participants separately looks questionable and hints at the fact that they desperately wanted to report a positive finding.

EDIT: If you look at the combined data for all excerpts and add the 13 plus the 3 "outliers" together, the data scatters very, very close to 50% and is not significant for any of the three sample rate comparison pairs. You could argue that differences may be easier to hear on some types of music. But for music where nobody can hear a difference, the expected value is still 50% and yet, we deviate from that in both directions for the combined data set. From a purely statistical point you would expect that: Outliers to the positive and negative side of the 50% mark emerge by splitting the data into the different categories, resulting in a lower number of datapoints and higher uncertainty in each category.
Also note that the downsampler used, Pyramix 6, is possibly not very good. If the version tested at https://src.infinitewave.ca/ is similar, I’m not surprised that differences might be audible. Sample rate has zero to do with it.

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If these studies fail to cover even the bare basics, what else did they fuck up?
 
Bill Howie did an investigation and got solid statistical significance for 24-384 vs 24-48 for 3D audio


This was with trained listeners who had a lot of experience (a lot more than me).

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By audio type:

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For the piano, the main differentiating factor was an overall change in timbre between stimuli. It
was felt that one version was somewhat brighter than the other, and this brighter version was
generally assumed to be 384 kHz. Amount of perceived “air” in the recording was also reported
by several subjects.

For the crotales, all four of these subjects commented on a subtle difference in the decay of the
musical excerpt, after the dominant 7th chord resolves to the tonic. The 384 kHz audio was felt to
give a more well-defined pitch centre to the tonic note.

With the snare drum, there was somewhat less consensus. Subjects 1 and 4 commented on how
the density of the sound located behind the listener would change between stimuli, with one version
giving a better perception of individual attacks within the reflected sound. Subject 6 focused on
the very peak of the roll’s crescendo. Based on the orientation session, the subject felt that at
384 kHz the peak of the crescendo was more noticeable. Conversely, subject 3 focused on the
quietest moments within the snare roll, listening for differences in the sound of the snare hits that
were too quiet to substantially activate the ringing of the drum.

The subjective observations are not consistent with difference caused by IMD.
 

Attachments

Bill Howie did an investigation and got solid statistical significance for 24-384 vs 24-48 for 3D audio


This was with trained listeners who had a lot of experience (a lot more than me).

View attachment 550444

By audio type:

View attachment 550445



The subjective observations are not consistent with difference caused by IMD.
It’s not about sample rate, but about the anodizing filter used, which is non-transparent by design, and similar to what you see above. Again, this has nothing to do with sample rate, and everything to do with a poorly designed filter. Also, the test wasn’t double blind.
 
It’s not about sample rate, but about the anodizing filter used, which is non-transparent by design, and similar to what you see above. Again, this has nothing to do with sample rate, and everything to do with a poorly designed filter. Also, the test wasn’t double blind.
Seems like the study wasn't published anywhere, that might be why..
 
One funny example is that they report that their speakers can reproduce up to 33 kHz based on the spec sheet, but as far as I could find their amp rolls off past 22 kHz (again: based on specs) :cool:
Looking at measurements of several other Classe amps, I think that's unlikely. But if it was true, the confidence of a positive discrimination result would be higher.
 
Looking at measurements of several other Classe amps, I think that's unlikely. But if it was true, the confidence of a positive discrimination result would be higher.
Nah, the amp is fine: speced at 155 kHz -3 dB.
 
Possibly, but they tested p = 0.02 for 88.2 vs 44.1 kHz native with the orchestral piece.
That still doesn’t mean the reason for that is the sample rate. It’s not the only factor at play here, not by a long shot.

Also here the filter is once again suspect, this time, the one in the RME Micstasy ADC. It’s exceptionally short with only a 12 sample delay. This must have some kind of tradeoff effect, there is no alway to get a proper brickwall filter with so few taps. Edit: looking at the CS datasheet, performance might actually be decent enough.
 
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"Bitrate has a direct impact on sound quality. A lower bitrate could translate to a softer bass response or weak-sounding drum cymbals, or it could blur the attack and decay of a plucked guitar string."

I assume your 48kHz bitrate is lower than my 192kHz. To enjoy music, at least 2Mbps bitrate. It also happens on watching movies. at least 20Mbps.
CD is about 1.4 Mb/s so what are your 2 Mb/s files? 20 Mb/s would include video, of course, so that's not comparable.
 
It’s not about sample rate, but about the anodizing filter used, which is non-transparent by design, and similar to what you see above. Again, this has nothing to do with sample rate, and everything to do with a poorly designed filter. Also, the test wasn’t double blind.

Applying an anodizing filter should make your music last longer (no one likes oxidation). But care should be taken with respect to coloration (unless you want it, in which case go crazy).
 
CD is about 1.4 Mb/s so what are your 2 Mb/s files? 20 Mb/s would include video, of course, so that's not comparable.
FLAC files. I don't use CD anymore. CD is memory from the past. We're living in the era of HDD capacity 24TB so movies bitrate above 20Mbps is not problem anymore.

I don't know whether lower samplerate can have higher bitrate. I only know all my 96kHz and 192kHz files have bitrate above 2Mbps.
 
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FLAC files. I don't use CD anymore. CD is memory from the past. We're living in the era of HDD capacity 24TB so movies bitrate above 20Mbps is not problem anymore.

I don't know whether lower samplerate can have higher bitrate. I only know all my 96kHz and 192kHz files have bitrate above 2Mbps.
OK. I gave CD as an example. FLAC and ALAC are losslessly compressed so you have the same audio content in ~60% of the data, which would be 800-900 kb/s (it varies with the music content). To get the bitrate you need only to multiply sample rate x bit depth x channels, so for 96 kHz, 24 bit, 2 channels it would be 4.6 Mb/s, which I would expect to compress to ~2.8 Mb/s FLAC, and for 192 kHz simply double those.

The issue is whether this is literally a waste of space. Is there a provable audible difference compared with CD quality, with everything else the same, of course?
 
I have been trying to find independent replication attempts for the "hypersonic effect" and there really isn't much (i even resorted to asking grok due to being out of free messages for claude and chatGPT).

We have this short paper which may have found something but nothing particularly convincing:


So far i have only found 2 decent quality independent replication attempts (with regard to brain activity) and seems like neither bothered to minimize the impact of IMD by playing the ultrasonics from a different speaker:



I did read something about it taking 150 seconds for the difference to fully emerge.

Typically the best approach for finding differences when testing blind is by rapidly switching between versions and this can allow you to pick up on tiny differences between versions but when i tried that method with regard to ultrasonics i had a very hard time hearing any difference (at least after controlling for IMD by using a separate speaker for the ultrasonics). So i guess i have to try a longer test track next but first i need to get an amplifier that extends to at east 40Khz.

I did test a longer track many years ago (24-192 vs 24-48) and then i experienced something consistent with the hypersonic effect but that may have been a coincidence result since i didn't use proper randomization and the 24-192 version ended up playing last for the 9/10 guesses i got right. Said track also seemed to mainly have noise above 20Khz but perhaps noise works just as well as actual musical content for inducing a hypersonic effect?
 
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