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High Resolution Audio?

solderdude

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The MP3 low pass filter frequency depends on the used compression, music content and quality settings.
It is not fixed at 15kHz.

There is no such thing as 'an MP3'
 

maty

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[Spanish] Matías Greco El mp3 y los formatos lossless 28.10.2008

Problem: Expired certificate notice (Kaspersky advice). The page is safe.

[ El archivo FLAC se ve más oscuro que el MP3, debido a que tiene la energía en cada frecuencia de manera uniforme. Además podemos notar que al codificar en MP3 se aplica un filtro “corta altos” de orden prácticamente infinito, con una frecuencia de corte en los 15,5 kHZ, por lo que no existe energía en frecuencias superiores a 15,5 kHz. Debido a que nuestro oído es capaz de percibir frecuencias de hasta los 20 kHZ, esto provocará una pérdida de coloración en el sonido resultante al ser escuchados en sistemas de alta fidelidad... ]

espectro2.jpg


Google Translate does not work with the link. You need to copy the text.

https://translate.google.com/
 
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JJB70

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I'm no fan of the modern style of overly compressed and bassy recording, but surely that's not an MP3 issue as it is also true for CDs and high res downloads. If listening to a CD and a FLAC or 320k MP3 ripped from the same disc I find any differences which may be discernible (and in most cases I'm not sure there is a discernible difference) to be minor and immaterial to enjoyment of the music. I have accumulated a few DG blu-ray discs in recent months which are packaged with CD box sets (for example the Karl Bohm Mozart symphony cycle with the BPO, Steinberg's Planets with the Boston SO, Accardo's Paganini cycle, Bernsteins' Beethoven symphony cycle etc) and although some of them are enhanced by having multi-channel options if listening to the stereo blu ray recordings I can discern no difference at all and concur with Mark Waldrep's views on high KHz/bit versions of old recordings.
 

maty

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Then you have a bottleneck or more in your system. A very important one is usually the quality of the electrical grid, every year dirtier. Or Behringer crossover/DSP to the speakers and room eq > 200 Hz. Or... audiophile preamp/DAC with tubes. Or...

If I notice a lot the difference in my two systems and I am incapable in others much more expensive...
 

JJB70

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Then you have a bottleneck or more in your system. A very important one is usually the quality of the electrical grid, every year dirtier. Or Behringer crossover/DSP to the speakers and room eq > 200 Hz. Or... audiophile preamp/DAC with tubes. Or...

If I notice a lot the difference in my two systems and I am incapable in others much more expensive...

I have been using a pair of IEMs for the last few weeks which are generally considered to be particularly revealing of recording quality (Etymotic ER4SR) and although the Shanling M3s isn't the most expensive DAP in the world I think it has an audibly transparent DAC and headphone stage. I think if there were any noticeable differences between FLAC and 320k MP3 the M3s/ER4SR combination would show it.
 

FrantzM

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Riffing on what @Willem posted while I was typing away...

I think we might need to hit reset on where this is going. There is a hard limit on human perception. Despite many subjective opinions, there is little to gain in going beyond 16 bits 44.1kHz. Dogs and cats, of course, have a different perspective, though it would not apply to recorded music. Check this out to see how stuff above 30-40kHz is white noise.

The numbers show high bitrate MP3 and AAC (320kbs and 256kbs respectively) will be fine for your music. Let’s pull a baseline from an industry that needs to get this right: broadcasting. Here is a guide showing the bitrates you need with various formats to get transparent sound (perceptually CD quality from a CD original).

Anyway, back to humans. Of course there may be a few outliers who perceive above 20kHz, but it won’t be by much, and it will drop off dramatically with age. Which is fine. There is no particular harm in collecting music at bit depths and sample rates similar to studio master recordings, but let’s not assert this impacts playback positively without detailed and comprehensive ABX testing being cited.

Note: I have a bunch of 24 bit 92kHz stuff lying around. I could get it so I got it. For fun. After all, this is our hobby :)

I am willing to bet my yet-to-be-acquired-end-game system that these outliers won't be the aging audiophiles with the financial wherewithal to acquire systems costing over $100,000... You know, those with Power cables costing over $1000 and similarly priced USB and Ethernet Cables ...

I remember back in the days when I was still a subjectivist audiophile (2005..) I left a TV on ... there was no picture on the screen and the TV ( a Sony) had no "on" indicator, of course, the Picture was to be that :) ... My niece who was at the time was around 15 came in the room, asking me to turn the TV off .. I looked at the screen and TV , saw nothing and shrugged , she insisted and proceeded to turn it off.. She could hear back in her room (a good 20~30 feet from the TV !!) the "screech" that flyback transformer produce ...These work at frequencies above 15 KHz. I was in the room , was not even close to being 50 years old and heard NOTHING... thus began my "descent" :)) into the abyss of Science-based Audio reproduction ...
 
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solderdude

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Google Translate does not work with the link. You need to copy the text.

They are only correct when they speak about 128kbs MP3
The 15kHz low-pass filter is present at 128kbs, the filter is higher in frequency at higher bitrates and variable depending on music contents, encoder settings and type of encoder.


lame enc. settingspng.png
 
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mansr

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They are only correct when they speak about 128kbs MP3
The 15kHz low-pass is present at 128kbs, the filter is higher in frequency at higher bitrates and variable depending on music contents, encoder settings and type of encoder.



fWgdo.png
Nothing in the MP3 spec mandates a filter at any bit rate. A decent encoder will, however, apply a low-pass filter when the loss of (barely audible) high frequencies is deemed less bad than the increased distortion at lower frequencies that would necessarily result from using precious bits to encode aforementioned high-frequency content. This is all part of the psychoacoustic model specific to each encoder.
 

maty

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I use profusely the enriched edition since the end of the nineties (for years the web pages wrote them manually in HTML, on contents of computer security and Linux), aware of the Spanish educational disaster, with new generations unable to concentrate on a slightly long text and neat. Now with the generalization of mobiles, the problem has worsened and not only in Spain.

Of course, I have not reached the level of Yuri Kovalenok with him Physics notes :)

https://www.instagram.com/jurij0001/

Kovalenok.jpg
 

solderdude

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+1 for use of font colour, bold, etc lol

Was just trying to appeal to @maty ;)

What if we take advantage of John Siau commenting on the thread of the Benchmark AHB2 amplifier to ask him about it?

Why? he would tell you the same thing.
Is Mansr not authorative enough for you ?

Below a spectrum plot I made from an 320 CBR HQ MP3 a while back.
20kHz highpass filter ... not 15.5kHz.

spectrum.png
 
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maty

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Years pass and the discussion about the MP3 320kbps vs FLAC 16/44 is still stagnant.

Has anyone bothered to read the contents of the aforementioned page and play the two audio files?

http://matiasgreco.com/2008/10/el-mp3-y-los-formatos-lossless/

[ Prueba auditiva

Para esta prueba, usaremos el tema “Airbag” de RadioHead.

Audio 1

Por concepto de acústica, si sumamos dos señales idénticas, pero una invertida en polaridad, deberían cancelarse. Sin embargo, si a un sonido codificado en Flac -en este caso “Airbag” de RadioHead-, le sumamos el mismo sonido codificado en mp3 pero invertido en polaridad, obtenemos lo siguiente:

Audio 2

Lo que escuchan, es todo el sonido que tiene la muestra en Flac pero no tiene el mp3, esto provoca tal pérdida de coloración del sonido resultante. Es un ruido, porque tiene energía en todas las frecuencias, que son las frecuencias que la codificación en mp3 elimina. ]
 

maty

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In diyaudio forums, in some of the tests proposed by PMA I already commented that I do not trust ABX plugin and foobar2000. There is some problem because with it I could not and yet with JRiver MC (with Kernel streaming) it was easy for me to differentiate!

That is one of the reasons why I detest foobar2000 as a player, only like a tool.
 

flipflop

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In diyaudio forums, in some of the tests proposed by PMA I already commented that I do not trust ABX plugin and foobar2000. There is some problem because with it I could not and yet with JRiver MC (with Kernel streaming) it was easy for me to differentiate!

That is one of the reasons why I detest foobar2000 as a player, only like a tool.
You can use an ABX tool of your own choice. As long as it produces a log that can be shared with the rest of us.
 

andreasmaaan

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In diyaudio forums, in some of the tests proposed by PMA I already commented that I do not trust ABX plugin and foobar2000. There is some problem because with it I could not and yet with JRiver MC (with Kernel streaming) it was easy for me to differentiate!

That is one of the reasons why I detest foobar2000 as a player, only like a tool.

So you’ve done a blind test which did not demonstrate you could differentiate, and you’re still online telling people you can “easily” hear the difference?

Please take a few facts into account:
  • Very few people have demonstrated an ability to differentiate between 320Kbps mp3 and redbook.
  • Those who have done so, barely did so, and acknowledge the difference is subtle at best.
  • You have not passed an ABX test yourself, despite trying to.
  • You blame the Foobar ABX comparator, yet others have passed such a test using the very same comparator (@amirm among them, I believe).
The fact that when sighted you “easily” hear a difference, yet hear no difference whatsoever under controlled conditions, is a major red flag IMO that the difference you hear has its basis in psychology.

I use profusely the enriched edition since the end of the nineties (for years the web pages wrote them manually in HTML, on contents of computer security and Linux), aware of the Spanish educational disaster, with new generations unable to concentrate on a slightly long text and neat. Now with the generalization of mobiles, the problem has worsened and not only in Spain.

That makes sense in general, but I think you might find that with an intelligent, rational and technical audience like the one here, this style may be not only unnecessary, but also potentially misconstrued as patronising.
 

andreasmaaan

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PS @maty, if I were you I’d just say “Well, lucky me, 320Kbps mp3 is good enough, no need to spend more on Tidal vs Spotify, or HDtracks vs iTunes.”

(In fact this is exactly what I do say to myself in 90% of cases, fwiw.)
 
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