high level subwoofer connection vs. rca

[hawk01]

Agreed.

Some (maybe many) setups would benefit from a higher crossover point than wherever the natural roll off of the speakers allows the sub to be integrated to achieve the listeners preferred sound.

Whether due to room acoustics. Or distortion from the speaker below the tuning point at higher volumes. The latter could particularly be a problem with base heavy music or movie bass special effects. My Sierra 2EX have an anechoic response of 38Hz - 38kHz ± 3dB, and I still cross it over and I cross it over at 80hz because because my subs are more capable in my big space.

this is the point very well taken and in my case have very well proven! that is why my trusty avr crossed at 80hZ (using dual sealed subs in assymetric locations) provides the smoothest bass performance across most, if not all music genre i threw at the system.

 

[Willem]

For a while my system only allowed high level connection of my subwoofer, but with my new rme ADI-2 I now have a line level output and I could add an 80 Hz 4th order inline high pass filter as well. I have now connected the sub at line level, and the deepest bass is not only a bit cleaner (my Antimode 8033 subwoofer dsp room eq. now works up to higher frequencies) but also deeper for not having gone through the slightly bandwidth limited Quad 606-2 power amplifier. It is not a night and day difference, but it was worth it. The next step will be measurements to tune the low pass filter and level more precisely.

 

[ririt]

Never use high level to connect a sub.

Can you please elaborate why?

 

[Count Arthur]

Never use high level to connect a sub.

I found high level to be infinately better than the other methods of connecting my sub. Because, without significant changes or additions to the rest of the system, there were no other methods of connecting my sub.

 

[A Surfer]

I found high level to be infinately better than the other methods of connecting my sub. Because, without significant changes or additions to the rest of the system, there were no other methods of connecting my sub.

That is not a response to the technical critique, you are talking about convenience which while important is not the same thing as a technical rationale.

 

[BDWoody]

That is not a response to the technical critique, you are talking about convenience which while important is not the same thing as a technical rationale.

It was funny.

 

[Willem]

It was funny.

But also very true. A high level connection may be less elegant, with first amplification, then attenuation, and then another round of amplification, but with many integrated amplifiers it is the only practical solution.
It is a real pity that manufacturers of 2 channel amplifiers make it so hard to use subwoofers, a high pass filter, or dsp room eq. An attenuation cable allows you to reduce the speaker level output to line level, but still prohibits a high pass filter and hence forces you to set the low pass filter quite low, depending on the low end extension of your main speakers, of course.

 

[sigbergaudio]

i can never downplay the importance of having a subwoofer (especially duals) in a two channel set up. hence my nitty search for something acceptable in the market of integrateds. case in point: i have revel m16s in a 1931cuft room. these things are capable of delivering decent quantities of bass for their size. you could say they could stand their ground by themselves well enough for the most part. however, i have material when played on them excites the room like hell and in the absence of EQ resources you are must better off avoiding those that altogether. this is where my dual subs hooked into the trusty avr shines! they breeze through anything thrown at them with a high level of acceptable bass performance compared to the revel m16s alone which can be picky in exciting room modes.. my duals are placed in opposing diagonal corners of the room, one on floor level, the other one on a 2ft high stand. the assymetrical positions do serve a very good purpose! funny for the time being my decent integrated amp is no match against the humble avr if only for this merit.

This was discussed this in a different thread recently too (don't remember which one), but we're compiling a list of stereo amplifiers with subwoofer support, perhaps it can be useful in your quest: https://www.sigbergaudio.no/blogs/news/stereo-amplifiers-with-proper-support-for-subwoofers

We do (as a subwoofer manufacturer) also clearly recommend low level input (RCA/XLR) over high level input. Both due to better signal quality and the ability to use proper bass management and high pass the main speakers. And from a usability point it's also easier.

 

[escape2]

I've tried it both ways in my PC/desktop setup, and I prefer how things sound using high level inputs on my subwoofer - everything just sounds more musical to me that way, including the bass notes.

It is possible however that the "subwoofer" line level output on my little 2-ch Onkyo receiver is crap, and I haven't done any comparison measurements. I am just going by what sounds better to my ears.

 

[raistlin65]

I've tried it both ways in my PC/desktop setup, and I prefer how things sound using high level inputs on my subwoofer - everything just sounds more musical to me that way, including the bass notes.

It is possible however that the "subwoofer" line level output on my little 2-ch Onkyo receiver is crap, and I haven't done any comparison measurements. I am just going by what sounds better to my ears.

It could also be differences between volume when listening to each and/or expectation bias.

 

[hawk01]

This was discussed this in a different thread recently too (don't remember which one), but we're compiling a list of stereo amplifiers with subwoofer support, perhaps it can be useful in your quest: https://www.sigbergaudio.no/blogs/news/stereo-amplifiers-with-proper-support-for-subwoofers

We do (as a subwoofer manufacturer) also clearly recommend low level input (RCA/XLR) over high level input. Both due to better signal quality and the ability to use proper bass management and high pass the main speakers. And from a usability point it's also easier.

the link you sent was most informative! however, you indicated the yamaha R-N803D. as far as i know while this is YPAO equipped like their avrs, it does not have the proper user selectable crossovers in their setup menu. of course i may be wrong or the sales rep i asked is not well versed. is if possible for you to confirm this feature? the only thing that kept me from considering this unit is again the lack of proper bass management.

 

[hawk01]

This was discussed this in a different thread recently too (don't remember which one), but we're compiling a list of stereo amplifiers with subwoofer support, perhaps it can be useful in your quest: https://www.sigbergaudio.no/blogs/news/stereo-amplifiers-with-proper-support-for-subwoofers

We do (as a subwoofer manufacturer) also clearly recommend low level input (RCA/XLR) over high level input. Both due to better signal quality and the ability to use proper bass management and high pass the main speakers. And from a usability point it's also easier.

as a follow up to this i think even the marantz NR1200 only has subwoofer outs, level adjustability but no selectable crossover per manual. hope owners lurking here can comment though. it will be much appreciated.

 

[sigbergaudio]

@hawk01 I'm glad it was informative.

The NR1200 definitely supports variable crossover. From the NR1200 manual:

When it comes to the Yamaha I'm not sure. I assumed this review (https://www.audioappraisal.com/yamaha-r-n803d-musiccast-network-receiver-review/) was correct, it indicates that it has variable crossover, but I looked at the manual now and found no reference to it there. Weird to impement YPAO without it, but who knows. I'll add a note in the article about that, thanks.

EDIT: I see It was actually tested here on ASR as well https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ds/yamaha-r-n803-smart-receiver-review.13830/, and the question came up, but it seems Amir never verified it. But I suspect the standard YPAO was implemented where these things can be adjusted after the automatic calibration is done.

EDIT2: Did some more research and through a couple of forum posts elsewhere it looks like the 803 doesn't have any crossover settings. I'll update the article.

 

[hawk01]

the NR1200 indicates low pass filter for the subwoofer only. for proper bass management we also need a high pass for the mains. something all these stereo receivers do not have.

 

[sigbergaudio]

the NR1200 indicates low pass filter for the subwoofer only. for proper bass management we also need a high pass for the mains. something all these stereo receivers do not have.

That's not correct. With the possible exception of the Yamaha since it's a bit unclear what it does - all the amplifiers listed in the article also highpasses the mains at the same crossover that you define for the lowpass. Some will even let you set them individually. The Parasound will. The MiniDSP are also fully configurable. The others I'm less familiar with but I suspect also the Anthem and the Devialet will. Either way, typically it makes sense to have the same crossover for both lowpass and highpass.

 

[sigbergaudio]

A variable crossover for a subwoofer output that didn't at the same time highpass the mains would be a very strange implementation, I'm not aware of any amplifiers that does this.

 

[hawk01]

@hawk01 I'm glad it was informative.

The NR1200 definitely supports variable crossover. From the NR1200 manual:
View attachment 90607

When it comes to the Yamaha I'm not sure. I assumed this review (https://www.audioappraisal.com/yamaha-r-n803d-musiccast-network-receiver-review/) was correct, it indicates that it has variable crossover, but I looked at the manual now and found no reference to it there. Weird to impement YPAO without it, but who knows. I'll add a note in the article about that, thanks.

EDIT: I see It was actually tested here on ASR as well https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ds/yamaha-r-n803-smart-receiver-review.13830/, and the question came up, but it seems Amir never verified it. But I suspect the standard YPAO was implemented where these things can be adjusted after the automatic calibration is done.

EDIT2: Did some more research and through a couple of forum posts elsewhere it looks like the 803 doesn't have any crossover settings. I'll update the article.

as for the yamaha R-N803 it seems there is a low pass implemented for the speakers as per review. i just wish they were more concise in describing this feature.

 

[hawk01]

A variable crossover for a subwoofer output that didn't at the same time highpass the mains would be a very strange implementation, I'm not aware of any amplifiers that does this.

i strongly agree with you on this! but the way they present their manual requires more attention to detail and provide the owner a more thorough understanding of its features.

 

[Willem]

The Yamaha Pxx00s series of beefy pro audio power amplifiers were not only excellent and great value for money, but also had a user selectable high pass filter with a range of 25-150 Hz.

 

[escape2]

EDIT2: Did some more research and through a couple of forum posts elsewhere it looks like the 803 doesn't have any crossover settings. I'll update the article.

According to the screenshots posted in the link below, the 803 does have a configurable crossover.

Is it possible it's not mentioned in the manual becuse this functionality is only available through the app which may have been launched later? Still, you would think a company like Yamaha would go back and update the manual, unless the app has its own manual somewhere?

https://forums.audioholics.com/foru...eiver-with-ypao-bass-mgt.109121/#post-1222848