high level subwoofer connection vs. rca

[hawk01]

So please demonstrate the abilities of these particular units in equivalent terms......thanks in advance.

now i just learned even more vital info and affirmation. proper bass management must not contain full range signal delivered to the front stereo pair! i just saved a ton here! ergo i need not demonstrate anything anymore not knowing any better how to properly implement bass management. i guess the humble yamaha avr has been doing things properly all along! and to think i just downplayed its existence for all the hifi kool-aid!

 

[hawk01]

 

[hawk01]

in an effort to find an integrated amplifier with bass management like that of an avr, i posted a screenshot of the marantz pm7000n owners manual on subwoofer low pass filter. while it may seem to pass the lower frequency to the subwoofer output, does it cut off the lower frequencies to the mains??

 

[Kal Rubinson]

in an effort to find an integrated amplifier with bass management like that of an avr, i posted a screenshot of the marantz pm7000n owners manual on subwoofer low pass filter. while it may seem to pass the lower frequency to the subwoofer output, does it cut off the lower frequencies to the mains??

Typically, in AVRs and HTPs, this sets only the low pass frequency for the sub(s) and is independent of the crossover frequency for bass management with sets low pass for the sub(s) and high pass for the main speakers. Since this is a two channel amp, that generalization may or may not apply. Also, note that it only says "Sets the low pass filter for the subwoofer output"so I suspect that is all it does.

 

[hawk01]

Typically, in AVRs and HTPs, this sets only the low pass frequency for the sub(s) and is independent of the crossover frequency for bass management with sets low pass for the sub(s) and high pass for the main speakers. Since this is a two channel amp, that generalization may or may not apply. Also, note that it only says "Sets the low pass filter for the subwoofer output"so I suspect that is all it does.

hmm, why don’t they just incorporate “proper“ bass management into these 2ch integrated amps as they do with home theater avrs??? surely beats the ragged path i took in “correctly” integrating a subwoofer to my 2ch set up.

 

[Chrispy]

hmm, why don’t they just incorporate “proper“ bass management into these 2ch integrated amps as they do with home theater avrs??? surely beats the ragged path i took in “correctly” integrating a subwoofer to my 2ch set up.

Good question. Ever see this article? https://audiophilereview.com/subwoofers/what-audiophiles-are-getting-wrong-about-subwoofers.html

Sometimes with 2ch integrated amps with a sub pre-out you have to search the manual for presence of a high pass or low pass filter....like the Yamaha AS701 you mentioned, it apparently only has a fixed cutoff of 100hz on the sub pre-out. Some units do have an actual crossover, sometimes analog, sometimes digital (and probably the digital voodoo keeps some audiophiles away). One example that comes to mind is Outlaw's RR2160 with its analog crossover....

 

[raistlin65]

hmm, why don’t they just incorporate “proper“ bass management into these 2ch integrated amps as they do with home theater avrs??? surely beats the ragged path i took in “correctly” integrating a subwoofer to my 2ch set up.

Most likely because you only have to go back 10 years on audio forums to find most audiophiles acting like using a subwoofer in a stereo setup was as desirable as giving yourself an STD. lol

Well, except for the few who went for the REL stereo subwoofer mess

The industry is slow to change. While they have certainly embraced streaming, the manufacturers haven't picked up yet on what they need to do to support subwoofers in stereo components. Heck, 10 years ago the manufacturers didn't even like to put DACs in receivers and integrated amps.

 

[hawk01]

@Chrispy check this out from the NAD388 manual. seems like a legit bass management feature that sets a high pass for the mains. although they should have put 80hz instead of 150hz or a user selectable crossover setting.

 

[Chrispy]

@Chrispy check this out from the NAD388 manual. seems like a legit bass management feature that sets a high pass for the mains. although they should have put 80hz instead of 150hz or a user selectable crossover setting.
View attachment 89098

Well if all you want is a limited crossover of 150hz....which doesn't sound all that useful in any case....

 

[hawk01]

Well if all you want is a limited crossover of 150hz....which doesn't sound all that useful in any case....

sadly a half ass effort into bass management!

 

[Chrispy]

sadly a half ass effort into bass management!

Maybe 5% ass effort

 

[hawk01]

hmm, i was just fiddling through my svs pc2000 manual and this catches my attention:
check out item #6 and #7. per manual seems like a legit bass management crossed at 80hz! i can insert this into the loop out of my NAD326BEE which has preamp out-power amp in. only thing is i will need to have quite a few lengthy interconnects to accomplish the task! the sub is about 6ft++ away from the amp.

 

[GDK]

hmm, i was just fiddling through my svs pc2000 manual and this catches my attention:
check out item #6 and #7. per manual seems like a legit bass management crossed at 80hz! i can insert this into the loop out of my NAD326BEE which has preamp out-power amp in. only thing is i will need to have quite a few lengthy interconnects to accomplish the task! the sub is about 6ft++ away from the amp.
View attachment 89163View attachment 89164

Just FYI - IME the SVS customer service is excellent. If you email them with a question, they will get back to you very quickly and can look at your set-up and what you are trying to achieve make some recommendations around connectivity and cross-over levels.

 

[hawk01]

Just FYI - IME the SVS customer service is excellent. If you email them with a question, they will get back to you very quickly and can look at your set-up and what you are trying to achieve make some recommendations around connectivity and cross-over levels.

yes SVS has already explained how these line level inputs/outputs work as indicated in the manual. outputs do have a fixed 80hz high pass filter going back to the power amplifier.

 

[Willem]

Sometimes high level connection is the only possibility, but it prohibits a high pass filter. So in that case the low pass filter should be set fairly low, to allow the sub to simply add where the main speaker falls off. This may make integration a bit easier, but you do not benefit from the potential of a high pass filter to lighten the work load for your speakers and power amplifier. So if you can, use a line level connection and a high pass filter. If your amplifier or subwoofer do not have one (few stereo amps or subs do), you will have to add one, either electronically, or in the form of e.g. the FMods from Harrison Labs. 80 Hz is a common frequency for this, and this allows you to use a rather higher low pass filter on the sub, and make it do more of the heavy lifting.

 

[A Surfer]

In regards to whether or not any integrated amps can do an acceptable job of basic bass management for working with subs I think my NAD M3 does a pretty respectable job. Now keep in mind my needs are modest and I subscribe to the notion that quite a bit of the differences we often discuss here with decently engineered gear is probably subtle as opposed to significant. I am not talking about room correction, simply from the perspective of a person who before they move onto DSP room correction (I agree a crucial step that must eventually be taken) intends to enjoy their gear as best they can making reasonable efforts to properly locate their speakers.

So back to the M3. It offers two preouts, one preout provides analog 2nd order filters configured around the low impedance differential Class A output stage of the preamp at the typical 40, 60, 80, 100 or full range. This preout is used for my mains which are pretty bass competent Monitor Audio PL200. I highpass at 40Hz and use the other preout to send the full range signal to my dual SB2000 Pro subs allowing the subs to do the crossover there.

This seems to do a good job to my ears and from a technical standpoint it should be fundamentally sound enough not to be introducing any spurious, audible nastiness into the sound. Is this not an example of at least an adequate way that an integrated amp can provide the most basic of bass management into a 2.2 system?

 

[Kvalsvoll]

None of those will work properly. You need adjustable filters, and you need adjustable delay on mains. Now, if that was impossible due to "technology has yet to reach this kind of advanced level" - then you could argue that this is all there is, we just have to live with the shortcomings.

But that is not the case in 2020. One easy solution is to buy an AVR which has all the processing that is required to do this properly.

My solution is to make the loudspeaker system active - all processing and amplification provided as part of the speaker system, which then also has the benefit of a default configuration that ensures proper integration. This processor - amp combo just replaces the power amplifier, with line input from the pre as input signal. Input can be either analog or digital. Problem solved, and you also have processing for custom room correction in the bass range - which is a requirement in any state-of-the-art sound system.

 

[Chrispy]

hmm, i was just fiddling through my svs pc2000 manual and this catches my attention:
check out item #6 and #7. per manual seems like a legit bass management crossed at 80hz! i can insert this into the loop out of my NAD326BEE which has preamp out-power amp in. only thing is i will need to have quite a few lengthy interconnects to accomplish the task! the sub is about 6ft++ away from the amp.
View attachment 89163View attachment 89164

Cool.

 

[hawk01]

But that is not the case in 2020. One easy solution is to buy an AVR which has all the processing that is required to do this properly.

@Kvalsvoll, @Chrispy ah my dear sirs i am once again back to the ole reliable humble AVR as you @Chrispy have highly regarded! dang this is becoming a ”told you so” moment already. at any rate, even if the SVS recommendation for line level connections are legit, the thought of running several lengths of interconnects would make the room look like a nest of vipers! as if its not getting there already. wife might use them interconnects to strangle me in my sleep!

 

[hawk01]

In regards to whether or not any integrated amps can do an acceptable job of basic bass management for working with subs I think my NAD M3 does a pretty respectable job. Now keep in mind my needs are modest and I subscribe to the notion that quite a bit of the differences we often discuss here with decently engineered gear is probably subtle as opposed to significant. I am not talking about room correction, simply from the perspective of a person who before they move onto DSP room correction (I agree a crucial step that must eventually be taken) intends to enjoy their gear as best they can making reasonable efforts to properly locate their speakers.

So back to the M3. It offers two preouts, one preout provides analog 2nd order filters configured around the low impedance differential Class A output stage of the preamp at the typical 40, 60, 80, 100 or full range. This preout is used for my mains which are pretty bass competent Monitor Audio PL200. I highpass at 40Hz and use the other preout to send the full range signal to my dual SB2000 Pro subs allowing the subs to do the crossover there.

This seems to do a good job to my ears and from a technical standpoint it should be fundamentally sound enough not to be introducing any spurious, audible nastiness into the sound. Is this not an example of at least an adequate way that an integrated amp can provide the most basic of bass management into a 2.2 system?

hmm, you are most fortunate to have the luxury of a NAD M3! truly convenient platform with nicely implemented bass management. i am on the look out for something similar in the used market locally.