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High(ish) end passive speakers for 2-channel audio kit recommendations

obkook

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Hi everyone, long-time lurker, first-time poster here.

I've started getting my feet wet in DIY and am looking to take on my next project.
I built an active C-Note based pair of speakers in gloss-white for the living room and an RPi + Tone DAC streamer using Plexamp and Plex to manage the library.
My main system (currently) is a '75 Luxman L100u fully refurbished driving Dynaudio Contour 1.3 mkII speakers.

I just sold a pair of Klipsch KG4's with upgraded tweeters (Crites Ti) and a refurbished/rebuilt crossover (that I did).

I saw a handful of great reviews around the new Dynaudio Heritage speakers and began lusting after them, but the price was simply a deal killer. This led me down the path of looking at DIY builds for an upgraded speaker to replace my current Dyns with. I play mainly classic rock and electric blues with a sprinkling of Bluegrass and bebop when the occasion (or the bourbon and hour) calls for it. Mid-sized man cave where I generally am just entertaining myself.

I am not un-handy, but definitely not an artist and do not have the equipment for a full-on build, so I've been gravitating towards flatpacks and pre-engineered kits. I was looking pretty closely at the GR-research stuff (sans cable and power cords) and love the CNC flatpacks that they are offering for the X-LS and X-static models.

I am looking for great clarity and a neutral speaker (the Luxman adds just the right amount of warmth for me, and I'm also eventually planning to build the amp and preamp tube kits offered by Elekit). I'm open to bookshelf or floorstanders and am intrigued by horns and open baffle designs, but this build needs to be something manageable in both its scope, cost and footprint.

I'd love to hear some thoughts on how the GR-R's would compare against the Dyns and if there are other full kits that I should look at. Ideally I'm budgeting somwhere in the neighborhood of $1K to $1.5K but I always accomodate for scope-creep!

Thanks in advance - I love the great info on this forum and am closely following a number of the other project threads as well!

Peter
 
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617

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Look at the kits from CSS and Diysoundgroup. Avoid GR research, the designer is not very credible.

Also there is one cabinet maker who makes flat pack cabinets for a variety of kits you can buy the parts for online. Actually he sells some of the parts too.

https://www.speakerhardware.com/philharmonic-bmr-flat-pack.php
https://www.speakerhardware.com/statements-tower-flat-pack-ii.php
https://www.speakerhardware.com/finalist-flat-pack.php

The BMR has been measured by Erin's Audio youtube channel on the Klippel NFS and the performance is excellent. That would be my recommendation.
 

Wolf

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If you are wanting flat-packs, this one of mine will likely fit your criteria. I know yellow is not for everybody, but these sounded exceptional.

Flat pack, albeit slightly altered as used:
https://www.parts-express.com/Knock-Down-MDF-1.16-ft-Tower-Cabinet-300-7066

Nephila kit:
https://meniscusaudio.com/product/nephila-bare-bones-kit-pair/
Build thread:
http://diyspeakerforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=431
Photo from MWAF 2015:
nephila (2).jpg


Of course internal xovers are okay. The internal bracing is not required as I did it, but it helps in terms of resonances. Paint is mainly Rustoleum Dark Cherry.
 
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obkook

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Thanks for the replies! These links are leading me down a rabbit hole for sure!
They both look like great options and the BMR (especially) looks like a pretty easy build for a novice like me.

Thanks for curating these ideas - I'd welcome any others as well!
 

johnp98

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I got the HTM-12s from DIYSoundGroup and absolutely love them! I use it more for home theater and music, so high efficiency and dynamics were a factor for me. Anyways, I would certianly recommend DIYSG and erich and matt who run it are very good with providing further info and advice. But I am obviously providing my very limited experience as I have not built any other DIY kits.
 

bryanl9581

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Look at the kits from CSS and Diysoundgroup. Avoid GR research, the designer is not very credible.

Also there is one cabinet maker who makes flat pack cabinets for a variety of kits you can buy the parts for online. Actually he sells some of the parts too.

https://www.speakerhardware.com/philharmonic-bmr-flat-pack.php
https://www.speakerhardware.com/statements-tower-flat-pack-ii.php
https://www.speakerhardware.com/finalist-flat-pack.php

The BMR has been measured by Erin's Audio youtube channel on the Klippel NFS and the performance is excellent. That would be my recommendation.

I would hesitate to discredit GR Research so fast. His X-LS Encore design measured very well and did earn a recommendation from Amir.
 
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obkook

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I got the HTM-12s from DIYSoundGroup and absolutely love them! I use it more for home theater and music, so high efficiency and dynamics were a factor for me. Anyways, I would certianly recommend DIYSG and erich and matt who run it are very good with providing further info and advice. But I am obviously providing my very limited experience as I have not built any other DIY kits.

I looked at some of these designs, but noted there were so many that were out of stock.

I must admit, my logical brain is still sometimes fighting to overome my emotional gut that says, "how can you spend a few hundred and expect to replace your "DYNAUDIO" speakers?!?!" Although I've seen how they measure (the Dyns) and I'm familiar with channel markups. But it still seems that I need to spend a little more to "upgrade" the sound significantly?
 
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obkook

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If you are wanting flat-packs, this one of mine will likely fit your criteria. I know yellow is not for everybody, but these sounded exceptional.

Flat pack, albeit slightly altered as used:
https://www.parts-express.com/Knock-Down-MDF-1.16-ft-Tower-Cabinet-300-7066

Nephila kit:
https://meniscusaudio.com/product/nephila-bare-bones-kit-pair/
Build thread:
http://diyspeakerforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=431
Photo from MWAF 2015:
View attachment 124659

Of course internal xovers are okay. The internal bracing is not required as I did it, but it helps in terms of resonances. Paint is mainly Rustoleum Dark Cherry.

How critical are the upgrades that you made to the flatpack you linked? The build thread is way impressive and probably a lot more than I could tackle at this point.
 
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obkook

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Look at the kits from CSS and Diysoundgroup. Avoid GR research, the designer is not very credible.

Also there is one cabinet maker who makes flat pack cabinets for a variety of kits you can buy the parts for online. Actually he sells some of the parts too.

https://www.speakerhardware.com/philharmonic-bmr-flat-pack.php
https://www.speakerhardware.com/statements-tower-flat-pack-ii.php
https://www.speakerhardware.com/finalist-flat-pack.php

The BMR has been measured by Erin's Audio youtube channel on the Klippel NFS and the performance is excellent. That would be my recommendation.

The BMR seems to focus on orchestral music - I have no idea what that means in terms of the rock and rockin' blues that I listen to?
I really like the looks of the CSS Criton 2TD (but what a terrible choice of font on their website! Can barely read the mode name!)
 
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obkook

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I got the HTM-12s from DIYSoundGroup and absolutely love them! I use it more for home theater and music, so high efficiency and dynamics were a factor for me. Anyways, I would certianly recommend DIYSG and erich and matt who run it are very good with providing further info and advice. But I am obviously providing my very limited experience as I have not built any other DIY kits.

What makes them better suited for HT over music? (or in addition to music?)
 

johnp98

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What makes them better suited for HT over music? (or in addition to music?)
I think people see waveguides and high sensitivity and assume it must be for home theater (as it works great with receivers with less overall power, and home theaters often need greater dynamics than music).
I don't really fall into the school of thought that those types of speakers are only good for home theater though. Good on and off axis response with good directivity is universal in importance.

The only thing I would be aware of is they don't dig down super low and are designed to be crossed over in the 60-80hz range. So if you have subs then that's a very moot point. But yeah they are not full range speakers.
 

617

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The BMR seems to focus on orchestral music - I have no idea what that means in terms of the rock and rockin' blues that I listen to?
I really like the looks of the CSS Criton 2TD (but what a terrible choice of font on their website! Can barely read the mode name!)

There are basically two categories of well designed speakers, wide directivity and narrow directivity. Poorly designed speakers such as most 2 ways without a waveguide are uneven directivity. The DIY Sound Group HTM speakers are narrow directivity, the BMR is wide directivity. The BMR will have a smooth and refined sound with lots of reflections and envelopment, with good and low but not incredibly dynamic bass. The big HTM speaker will be more intelligible and probably more immediate sounding, with much more dynamic mid-bass and a more 'live' sound. If it is your ambition to rock I would get something like the HTM speaker and pair it with a sub if the bass doesn't do it for you.

Diy speakers begin to make more sense economically as they get bigger, as building a big speaker is not much more expensive than a small one, but shipping one around the world is much more expensive. So, you're getting a lot of value with the DIY Sound Group speakers, especially the 12-15" ones. If you like to listen loud I bet you'd love them. This class of speakers has the dynamics of a live performance but with a much smoother and refined sound than any live sound set up I've heard.
 

617

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I would hesitate to discredit GR Research so fast. His X-LS Encore design measured very well and did earn a recommendation from Amir.

That is fair, but speakers like the BMR or the DIYSoundgroup offerings are in another performance class.
 

bryanl9581

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That is fair, but speakers like the BMR or the DIYSoundgroup offerings are in another performance class.
The BMR is on my list as the first one I want to build. I haven't looked at the DIY Sound Group stuff but I will now.
 
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obkook

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After spending WAY too much time clicking links and watching YouTube videos, I keep finding myself returning to and leaning towards a BMR or a CSS Criton 1TD(X) build. I guess that makes sense since it was the GR XLS Encore that led me here in the first place.

I haven't seen too much info on the CSS on this site - any opinions on how that speaker compares with the BMR?

Thanks again for the patience and suggetions!
 

617

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After spending WAY too much time clicking links and watching YouTube videos, I keep finding myself returning to and leaning towards a BMR or a CSS Criton 1TD(X) build. I guess that makes sense since it was the GR XLS Encore that led me here in the first place.

I haven't seen too much info on the CSS on this site - any opinions on how that speaker compares with the BMR?

Thanks again for the patience and suggetions!

The BMR is going to be smoother off axis, but the quality of the woofer in the CSS is the same or a bit better. If the BMR fits your budget I would recommend it. It's a no compromise wide dispersion design. If you're constrained on cost or size the CSS would be a good option, the measurements I've seen are quite good.

https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/philharmonic_bmr/

Seriously high end speaker. Ironically, the midrange is extremely inexpensive. The other two drivers, on the other hand, are not.
 
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obkook

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Reading a lot about the BMR's - they sound pretty awesome!

What about stands? It seems that the vertical off-axis is not as good and that the tweeter should sit around ear height. Since these speakers are taller than my current Dyns by 5" (20" vs 15"). Should I look into different stands for it?
 

617

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Assuming you are exactly at ear height with your current speakers and never slouch, at 6 feet, the angular difference will be around 4 degrees, and at 8 feet, around three degrees. The speaker is quite linear within that window. I doubt you could tell the difference.

The recommendation that speakers be listened at ear height is somewhat misguided; the tweeter axis just happens to be a logical reference during speaker design so that all your measurements, and subsequent third party measurements, show the most linear anechoic response from the speaker. In reality, a variety of near and late reflections blend with the sound, and small differences between sitting off or on axis are not going to be as dramatic as they may look from the measurements. In this case, even the measurements don't indicate a very dramatic difference. The important thing with speaker design is yes, a linear response roughly in front of the speaker, but almost as importantly, the smoothness of the total sound in the room; this is where the BMR's excel.
 

datrumole

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i dont think you'll have to spend much to find something that will sound great, thats mainly the benefit of the DIY designs

as others have stated above, its about finding and sometimes experimenting with what sounds good to you, and leaving your comfort zone to find out that maybe there are other things you may like, and with DIY, not breaking the bank to experiment a bit too

after swearing by the fabric tweeter sound, and low efficiency speaker designs, i'd never have thought the DIYSG high efficiency designs would win me over. was never much of the klipsch sound fanatic, as that was, and come to think of it, mainly still is, one of the only really accessible horn style designs still around. anyway, the Fusion 8's by Bagby are simply a wonder. they literally light up my room with so much dynamics that i've never heard its unreal. obviously, no real bass, so they do not stand on their own, but wow. i've heard the HTMs are an improvement on the Fusion lineup, but if thats true, not sure how much better than get

anyway, there is literally just too many designs to pick from. stick to the known designers, and i'm sure you can't go wrong. bagby's design sound more in line with what you may be describing, he was definitely a more purist in his goals. check out the 'helix' on DIYSG, or head over to meniscus, madisound, in addition to the sites you've found

happy hunting

edit: ah, you mentioned flat packs. i've reached out to some cnc shops in my area. while i do have all the tools, the cutting portion of things can really be a time drain. i've been quoted around 165-250 for bringing cut plans to a local cnc guy and having him program the machine, and make the cuts for me BYO-material. its an added expense, but ensures precision and simplicity down the line. and then it's just glue/staple/brad/clamp and you are on your way. there are savings in the mass-produced designs, but if you are looking to dabble in non-flat pack kits, this opens the door wide open to any DIY design
 
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AudioSQ

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I recently went through a similar journey. I considered all the options mentioned and then some. I was coming from the Fusion 8s. I eventually landed on the the Critons 2TDs. I enjoyed them so much I went for the tweeter upgrade with superior crossover parts. No regrets. There's not anything I could say about them that you probably haven't already found on the net. It's a fantastic speaker.
 
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