• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

High failure rate with Topping products?

HiFidFan

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 22, 2021
Messages
723
Likes
906
Location
U.S.A
I got that wayy back. I stay out of that because it gets political. I dig the JDS and Schiit DACs for the simplicity and the one headphone amp from Schiit has great power output specs.

Political? How on earth are customer service, shipping costs, and turnaround times political???
 

JJB70

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Aug 17, 2018
Messages
2,905
Likes
6,148
Location
Singapore
I don't think the issue is actually the build quality of Chinese hi-fi, for the most part that seems equivalent to European, US and Japanese branded equipment anywhere near the same price points. And most of those European, American and Japanese companies either manufacture in China or rely on Chinese made components.
The issue is warranty and after sales support and the very real advantages of dealing with a local supplier. I had zero issue buying equipment from Chinese brands locally when I was in England as under English law the retailer is the party with legal obligations for warranty etc. I also never had an issue buying cheap stuff from China (or anywhere else) for stuff I would be comfortable to write off if it falls into a heap. However for purchases outside of the throwaway category I generally shopped with local companies.
With respect to reliability and durability, most well designed products follow a bathtub curve. Heightened failure when products are new followed by a reliable service period in which failures are rare and then increasing failure at end of intended life. The width of the bathtub will be influenced by build quality (eg component quality, manufacturing tolerances, QA systems) and use case (eg thermal cycling, how hard it is pushed) and how well it is looked after. And this is where a bit of realism and expectation management is needed. If you want Accuphase or old Sony ES quality then you need to pay for it. If you want good performance for a low price and aren't worried about whether a product will outlast you then there's loads of excellent options. But don't buy something for the price of a decent meal for two and expect to get the equivalent of Accuphase.
 

anmpr1

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 11, 2018
Messages
3,722
Likes
6,406
But don't buy something for the price of a decent meal for two and expect to get the equivalent of Accuphase.
Certainly good advice. But it's not always cheapness that's the problem, either. In the wild and woolly days of boutique 'high end' (mid '70s to mid '80s) a lot of expensive gear that was highly touted as 'sounding good' had horrible reliability. Old timers might recall the Quatre 'Gain Cell' amplifier, or Andy Rappaport's amps and preamps, the ones that ran so hot you needed a liquid CPU cooler (which hadn't been invented yet) to keep them operational. Word had it that those had an almost 100% failure rate. 'Underground' mags loved them, while at the same time ridiculing solid and well built gear like McIntosh. When failure rates climbed, the mags moved on to other boutique gear, forgetting their earlier recommendations, and hoping readers wouldn't notice.

Personal anecdote: the dealer I frequented sold expensive amps from an outfit called Dunlap-Clarke. He once told me that almost all of his last shipment failed in the field.

For most, buying expensive/established is probably the way to go if you can afford it, but even then there is no guarantee that what is in the box is running to spec. I recall Rich Modafferi reviewing an Accuphase tuner. His conclusion was that it was one of the best tuners he'd ever run across (Richard knew all the good ones). That was the good news. The bad news was that it was horribly misaligned from the factory, and he had to spend his time setting it up before it met specs. Now, a guy like like Modafferi can do that. The average consumer?

It's why brands like historical McIntosh (I don't know about the 'new' Mac, which seems kind of trendy in design), Bryston, and on the 'lower end of expensive' Benchmark are respected for what they offer.
 

threni

Major Contributor
Joined
Oct 18, 2019
Messages
1,277
Likes
1,519
Location
/dev/null
Schiit; 2 to 5 years depending on product.
Also depending on country: only 2 years in the UK for some items which receive 5 years in the States.
 
OP
T

Tom Prowda

Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2021
Messages
8
Likes
16
Someone mentioned that the title of my thread was "too aggressive". I had heard anecdotal responses indicating there were problems with Topping units. Remember, I said, anecdotal..I was inquiring because I wanted to know if it was true and was not inviting being looked down upon because I couldn't afford a 'good' product. I purchased Topping after very careful research because of the company's reputation for producing high quality very affordable products that measured and sounded great.

I'm retired, living on Social Security and Medicare. I have limited means; budget is a major concern. as is reliability. I'm doing the best I can with what I have.

I would have bought Benchmark if I had the means. They make great products; Rory is a long time friend and a great guy. I would love to have a Topping D90 as well.

I'm actually now thinking it might not be my Topping unit after all, but possibly some problem with my USB interface on my PC, which I'm now researching. I bought a cheap FX Audio USB DAC from Amazon but the distortion issue has persisted.

I am very experienced with audio gear on many levels, I sold extreme high end audio for over 20 years years and owned many fine high end products from makers such as Audio Research, Krell, Levinson and Spectral as well as top end models from B&W and Mirage and a couple of Wilson WATT/Puppy iterations so I really don't need to be lectured or talked down to about what's "good".

Audio electronics no longer need to be expensive to be "good". There are quite a number of companies offering very high quality audio gear now at prices that were not imaginable even 5 years ago; I feel the only item that has to cost are speakers, which is largely tied to the manufacturing cost of the enclosures and even then that's another area where the performance envelope is being pushed at ever lower costs.

I feel that most high end products are nothing more that fairly conventional circuitry dressed up as fancy glittering audio jewelry for snob appeal.

Any concrete advice on troubleshooting this issue is appreciated. Please keep any criticisms about what's "good" to yourself. I may be 71 but my ears still work well above the norm for my age.
 

Berwhale

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Aug 29, 2019
Messages
3,935
Likes
4,925
Location
UK
Any concrete advice on troubleshooting this issue is appreciated.

If you're getting distortion from both the USB and optical connections on the DX7s, then the source of the distortion is unlikely to be your PC (assuming you are connecting the CD player/transport to the optical connection).

If you're also getting distortion from the FX Audio DAC, then it seems likely that the problem lies further down the chain. You don't mention the rest of your system.
 
OP
T

Tom Prowda

Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2021
Messages
8
Likes
16
Where did you buy the unit? Maybe the reseller can help you in some ways.

I purchased the unit from Drop.com when they still had great prices. I contacted Drop, who referred me to Topping, who then referred me back to Drop. We played ping pong for a couple more exchanges before Topping grudgingly gave me their address in China. I think it's kind of a moot point now, as I think the problem is somewhere else. It's not with my Hypex NC 252 amp, as I've checked it with a preamp section of an AV receiver I was able to borrow from a friend and it's not with my Revel M-12 speakers for the same reason.
 

MakeMineVinyl

Major Contributor
Joined
Jun 5, 2020
Messages
3,558
Likes
5,871
Location
Santa Fe, NM
If you have a voltmeter, you might try measuring if there is any DC voltage coming out of the DAC outputs when there is no signal but with the unit powered on.
 

MakeMineVinyl

Major Contributor
Joined
Jun 5, 2020
Messages
3,558
Likes
5,871
Location
Santa Fe, NM
Could this be noise, rather than distortion, caused by a ground loop maybe?
If it is a popping sound, then its either an issue with the muting circuit and or there's some DC offset somewhere. It could be coming from the computer, but I tend to doubt it.
 
OP
T

Tom Prowda

Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2021
Messages
8
Likes
16
If you're getting distortion from both the USB and optical connections on the DX7s, then the source of the distortion is unlikely to be your PC (assuming you are connecting the CD player/transport to the optical connection).

If you're also getting distortion from the FX Audio DAC, then it seems likely that the problem lies further down the chain. You don't mention the rest of your system.

Someone mentioned that the title of my thread was "too aggressive". I had heard anecdotal responses indicating there were problems with Topping units. Remember, I said, anecdotal..I was inquiring because I wanted to know if it was true and was not inviting being looked down upon because I couldn't afford a 'good' product. I purchased Topping after very careful research because of the company's reputation for producing high quality very affordable products that measured and sounded great.

I'm retired, living on Social Security and Medicare. I have limited means; budget is a major concern. as is reliability. I'm doing the best I can with what I have.

I would have bought Benchmark if I had the means. They make great products; Rory is a long time friend and a great guy. I would love to have a Topping D90 as well.

I'm actually now thinking it might not be my Topping unit after all, but possibly some problem with my USB interface on my PC, which I'm now researching. I bought a cheap FX Audio USB DAC from Amazon but the distortion issue has persisted.

I am very experienced with audio gear on many levels, I sold extreme high end audio for over 20 years years and owned many fine high end products from makers such as Audio Research, Krell, Levinson and Spectral as well as top end models from B&W and Mirage and a couple of Wilson WATT/Puppy iterations so I really don't need to be lectured or talked down to about what's "good".

Audio electronics no longer need to be expensive to be "good". There are quite a number of companies offering very high quality audio gear now at prices that were not imaginable even 5 years ago; I feel the only item that has to cost are speakers, which is largely tied to the manufacturing cost of the enclosures and even then that's another area where the performance envelope is being pushed at ever lower costs.

I feel that most high end products are nothing more that fairly conventional circuitry dressed up as fancy glittering audio jewelry for snob appeal.

Any concrete advice on troubleshooting this issue is appreciated. Please keep any criticisms about what's "good" to yourself. I may be 71 but my ears still work well above the norm for my age.

ADDENDUM, with an emphasis on the DUM....
I must be going senile...I switched back to the Topping DX-7s and now this distortion I was experiencing is gone. I've been running it all day on both USB and coax sources. I wish I knew where it came from; I wasn't imagining it when I heard it previously. Apologies for all the agita, God, I feel stupid.
...
 
OP
T

Tom Prowda

Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2021
Messages
8
Likes
16
BTW, the rest of my system is a Hypex NC-252 power amp which drives a set of Revel Concerta M12 speakers. I reiterate; God, I feel stupid...
 
OP
T

Tom Prowda

Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2021
Messages
8
Likes
16
If it is a popping sound, then its either an issue with the muting circuit and or there's some DC offset somewhere. It could be coming from the computer, but I tend to doubt it.
Certainly good advice. But it's not always cheapness that's the problem, either. In the wild and woolly days of boutique 'high end' (mid '70s to mid '80s) a lot of expensive gear that was highly touted as 'sounding good' had horrible reliability. Old timers might recall the Quatre 'Gain Cell' amplifier, or Andy Rappaport's amps and preamps, the ones that ran so hot you needed a liquid CPU cooler (which hadn't been invented yet) to keep them operational. Word had it that those had an almost 100% failure rate. 'Underground' mags loved them, while at the same time ridiculing solid and well built gear like McIntosh. When failure rates climbed, the mags moved on to other boutique gear, forgetting their earlier recommendations, and hoping readers wouldn't notice.

Personal anecdote: the dealer I frequented sold expensive amps from an outfit called Dunlap-Clarke. He once told me that almost all of his last shipment failed in the field.

For most, buying expensive/established is probably the way to go if you can afford it, but even then there is no guarantee that what is in the box is running to spec. I recall Rich Modafferi reviewing an Accuphase tuner. His conclusion was that it was one of the best tuners he'd ever run across (Richard knew all the good ones). That was the good news. The bad news was that it was horribly misaligned from the factory, and he had to spend his time setting it up before it met specs. Now, a guy like like Modafferi can do that. The average consumer?

It's why brands like historical McIntosh (I don't know about the 'new' Mac, which seems kind of trendy in design), Bryston, and on the 'lower end of expensive' Benchmark are respected for what they offer.

RE: Dunlap - Clarke amps. I owned a Dreadnaught 500 in the early-mid 70's, along with a Dayton Wright SPS preamp. The rig sounded absolutely fantastic...until one channel failed upon turn on. I brought it to a very good service tech; after examining the amp they told me they had located the bad part (driver transistor) but told me that the parts designations on everything had been removed so they didn't know what the transistor was. By that time the company had ceased operations so there was no one to contact about what the part was. Sigh. The Dayton Wright preamp failed not long afterward. Double sigh. After I got some funds together I bought an Apt/Holman preamp/power amp combo that was better made, worked flawlessly and at that point, sounded at least as good as the exotic stuff.
 

hmscott

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
May 17, 2020
Messages
604
Likes
493
ADDENDUM, with an emphasis on the DUM....
I must be going senile...I switched back to the Topping DX-7s and now this distortion I was experiencing is gone. I've been running it all day on both USB and coax sources. I wish I knew where it came from; I wasn't imagining it when I heard it previously. Apologies for all the agita, God, I feel stupid.
...
There are several sources and paths noise can be introduced, one of those is intermittent: PC USB borne noise when the GPU is active.

After stopping RFI/EMI noise with shielded cables I still found that when gaming or running CUDA compute I would get "birdies"- chirping or buzzing or a mix of noises as heard in the video I posted earlier.

When you have a PC source you might run a GPU test included with TechPowerUp GPU-Z, or run a 3D game, or do a CUDA compute benchmark, to see if GPU generated noise comes through. The ifi iDefender - cutting the USB power pair - removed that path from the PC GPU noise.

I'm happy to hear you have a configuration without noise right now... so that you know it is possible to run noise free with the Topping DX-7s, and you have a base configuration you can go back to when troubleshooting noise problems in the future. :)
 
Last edited:

svenz

Member
Joined
Dec 24, 2018
Messages
82
Likes
60
Location
London
I sort of wish they had high failure rates so I have an excuse to replace my D10. This thing has been running 24/7 for years now. I really want a D10s balanced :D.
 

0bs3rv3r

Active Member
Joined
Oct 24, 2019
Messages
248
Likes
234
I sort of wish they had high failure rates so I have an excuse to replace my D10. This thing has been running 24/7 for years now. I really want a D10s balanced :D.

Having opened it up and looked (in my D10) I can tell you there is no reason why they should not last a very long time. Very well made. Better quality than many other pieces of electronics I have had to repair. Not surprising really, some of these same asian factories churn out stuff for heaps of major brands.
 

escape2

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Mar 8, 2019
Messages
883
Likes
944
Location
USA

daftcombo

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 5, 2019
Messages
3,687
Likes
4,068
My Topping D10, bought mid-2018, now becomes mute after 10 minutes of use.
My E30, bought 9 months ago, still plays fine.
 

anmpr1

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 11, 2018
Messages
3,722
Likes
6,406
... after examining the amp they told me they had located the bad part (driver transistor) but told me that the parts designations on everything had been removed so they didn't know what the transistor was. By that time the company had ceased operations so there was no one to contact about what the part was.

There was a time when boutique circuit designers would obscure everything so competitors couldn't 'steal' their proprietary magic. Circuits were potted in epoxy bricks, etc. ARC 'analog modules' were a notable example. I read somewhere where a dealer melted down one of the sealed bricks comprising Andy Rappaport's circuits and found some run of the mill Motorola opamps in Andy's secret sauce.

Although Dunlap Clarke amps were monsters, and sure looked impressive, you were no doubt better off with your Apt preamp/amp.
 
Top Bottom