High end Vintage SS amp vs the best Class D amps

[Goodman]

Newer equipment does nothing better than 1960ish hardware? You find higher fidelity in few-watt tube amps running original K'horns, Quad ESLs, or LC-1As?

I don't see how I could have misunderstood this position, but I do find it hard to accept.

By electro -acoustics, I meant Speakers. Take $200,000.00 speakers from a well known us company. They are pretty good speakers, but where is the progress? Where is the new technology? please don't start me up on the new magical 2 or 8 watt tube amps, distortion factories.

 

[sergeauckland]

By electro -acoustics, I meant Speakers. Take $200,000.00 speakers from a well known us company. They are pretty good speakers, but where is the progress? Where is the new technology? please don't start me up on the new magical 2 or 8 watt tube amps, distortion factories.

I think any new technology is in the materials used for cones and suspension. I agree that there's precious little new technology in the moving-coil concept or passive crossovers, but loudspeaker drivers of today are generally and demonstrably better than those of the 1960s. When these drivers are used in DSP-based active loudspeakers, then the results are much much better than of old.

What I find both sad and irritating is how this driver technology doesn't necessarily result in better loudspeakers, as the frequency response of so many well known and expensive loudspeakers are so very poor. Ditto with distortion and polar response. $200,000 and yet so badly flawed.

When it does all come together correctly, drivers and DSP, like Dutch & Dutch, Grimm or even the Devialet Phantom, then they're something special, and far in advance of what was available in the 1960s and 1970s.

S.

 

[cany89]

By electro -acoustics, I meant Speakers. Take $200,000.00 speakers from a well known us company. They are pretty good speakers, but where is the progress? Where is the new technology? please don't start me up on the new magical 2 or 8 watt tube amps, distortion factories.

Have a look at JBL705/708. The mid drivers in these speakers are phenomenal. Good luck finding drivers like those decades ago.

 

[usersky]

Two thougts after reading 11 pages of this thread:
- whenever I think class D I almost hear singing capacitors from some TVs, computer monitors, motherboards or power sources. Then I enjoy my AB even more
- class A vs planet, that's something I never thought about. I bet neither did the planet.

 

[SIY]

Two thougts after reading 11 pages of this thread:
- whenever I think class D I almost hear singing capacitors from some TVs, computer monitors, motherboards or power sources. Then I enjoy my AB even more
- class A vs planet, that's something I never thought about. I bet neither did the planet.

Interestingly, the last big high end AB amp I had in house sang during frequency sweeps. The Purifi and nCore I use are dead silent. Don’t try to generalize based on inapt comparisons.

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

Interestingly, the last big high end AB amp I had in house sang during frequency sweeps. The Purifi and nCore I use are dead silent. Don’t try to generalize based on inapt comparisons.

Could you elaborate on the A/B amp singing like that? I'm interested more in the sense of a design flaw to avoid in our own amps.

 

[dfuller]

think any new technology is in the materials used for cones and suspension. I agree that there's precious little new technology in the moving-coil concept or passive crossovers, but loudspeaker drivers of today are generally and demonstrably better than those of the 1960s. When these drivers are used in DSP-based active loudspeakers, then the results are much much better than of old.

I wouldn't discount advances in motor technology either. The basic concept hasn't changed but the application has quite significantly, with a fair amount of improvement in motor induced distortion (between shorting rings and other magnetics-related improvements which driver manufacturers are surprisingly cagey about). Think things like Focal's Neutral Inductance Coil and whatever is going on in ATC's Superlinear Magnet Material and of course Scan-Speak's "SD-3" tech - which I think are all variations on and improvements of shorting rings or similar that significantly drop distortion.

But yes, lots of it is diaphragm and suspension improvements. Composite/sandwich cones, something like Focal's TMD Surround, new materials, improvements in rubber used for surrounds, and so on and so forth. And considering that these are the actual moving elements of the speaker it makes sense to concentrate improvement there.

Two thougts after reading 11 pages of this thread:
- whenever I think class D I almost hear singing capacitors from some TVs, computer monitors, motherboards or power sources. Then I enjoy my AB even more
- class A vs planet, that's something I never thought about. I bet neither did the planet.

The singing capacitors are usually actually poorly damped inductors ringing - aka "coil whine". Unless you're referring to electrolytics failing, which class AB amps are certainly not immune to...

 

[SIY]

Could you elaborate on the A/B amp singing like that? I'm interested more in the sense of a design flaw to avoid in our own amps.

I think it was some sort of electrostriction that was mechanically tied to the heatsinks, which can be effective acoustic radiators. Since the amp was on review loan and I couldn’t do disassembly, I can’t point to the guilty component. It was easy to hear when I ran it into a dummy load and did a medium power (10 watt) frequency sweep. It was particularly evident at 2-4 kHz.

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

I think it was some sort of electrostriction that was mechanically tied to the heatsinks, which can be effective acoustic radiators. Since the amp was on review loan and I couldn’t do disassembly, I can’t point to the guilty component. It was easy to hear when I ran it into a dummy load and did a medium power (10 watt) frequency sweep. It was particularly evident at 2-4 kHz.

Thanks. I've heard that happen before on an amp or two, but not on ours. I also haven't heard anything like that on our class D amps.

 

[SIY]

Thanks. I've heard that happen before on an amp or two, but not on ours. I also haven't heard anything like that on our class D amps.

It was not one of yours.

 

[MCH]

- class A vs planet, that's something I never thought about. I bet neither did the planet.

The planet won't think about it, it is us consumers who maybe should, for our own benefit

 

[Rottmannash]

Sorry gentlemen, the initial post was about class D amps vs Past amplifier circuitry AB,H,G, We then digressed "my bad" into the old and tired argument digital vs analog which could be paralleled the old Apple vs PC argument. I have no scientific rebuttal for what is in finé a matter of ease of use, taste and preference.

The Benchmark isn't class D.

 

[Goodman]

Even my ancient Tascam Digital Portastudio will make a more accurate recording of the string quartet than the most expensive tape machine you could buy. The concept of 'analogue purity' is nonsense. Anyone who tells you otherwise either doesn't know what they are talking about or is lying in order to sell you something; It's really that simple.

Who wants accurate? Are the microphones used accurate? Is the mixing board accurate? Is the mastering accurate? Is your Dac accurate ? In the end you are going to listen on speakers which are analog, are they accurate? Digital recordings, eliminate information, harmonics, side information, natural distortions, overshoots, and decay time. Yes, I want to hear the natural distortions.

 

[Purité Audio]

Microphones are used to create the file, we are interested in the reproduction of that file, as to digital eliminating information that is simply incorrect.
Keith

 

[JSmith]

Who wants accurate?

Most of us here.

Are the microphones used accurate?

Generally speaking yes, especially in a recording studio.

Is the mixing board accurate?

Accurate to what? It's a mixing board...

Is the mastering accurate?

See above.

Is your Dac accurate?

Yes.

are they accurate?

Most here seek same, however as you know this comes down to many factors.

I want to hear the natural distortions

Humans can't hear over 20KHz, ultrasonics are a liability and may add unwanted artefacts.

Digital recordings, eliminate information

How so?



JSmith

 

[jtgofish]

I think the gainclone type chip amps come a lot closer to a really good ClassA/B amplifier than a Class D.They have probably been overlooked because it is hard to market them as in the latest and greatest in ....whatever technology.I mean just look at all the carry on here about the Purifi modules!And from what I have heard they still sound like the instruments are being played by robots.

 

[JSmith]

And from what I have heard they still sound like the instruments are being played by robots.

Sorry, but I'm going to have to issue you with a for that.

You "heard" from others or you believe you "heard" this yourself? Please, elaborate and provide some data... if you can.



JSmith

 

[Doodski]

I think the gainclone type chip amps come a lot closer to a really good ClassA/B amplifier than a Class D.

I've handled many types of speaker amplifier ICs from large home audio stuff to small mobile audio stuff and most of them where decent enough but they where prone to hiss. Some of them the hiss was annoying. So I don't think they compare to a quality class A/AB amp.

 

[Goodman]

Most of us here.

Generally speaking yes, especially in a recording studio.

Accurate to what? It's a mixing board...

See above.

Yes.

Most here seek same, however as you know this comes down to many factors.

Humans can't hear over 20KHz, ultrasonics are a liability and may add unwanted artefacts.

How so?



JSmith

Let's start from the top, Accurate is good, musical is better.

 

[SIY]

Let's start from the top, Accurate is good, musical is better.

Slogans are easier than thought.