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High end receiver phono input vs dedicated phono stage?

GSHastings

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I'm glad to find this fairly current discussion on a topic I'm dealing with right now.

I recently purchased a Marantz PM7000N integrated amp. I was previously using a fairly good Sony 7.2 AV receiver, using a Schiit Mani (not the 2) for my phono preamp.

I'm wondering if the integrated phono amp in the Marantz is likely to be as good as the Mani, or better?

I've tried doing some A-B comparisons, but that's very slow/awkward with the cable swaps, etc.

I plan to do some long term listening comparisons, but am wondering if there is a specs based answer. I don't find specs for the Marantz at all. The specs for the Mani 2 are available on their website (not sure if the original Mani specs are the same).

Thanks,
Greg
 

Atomicdog

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I wish folks would answer the--I find very little objective info about but-in phono stages. The big guys--Stereophile, the Absolute Sound--ignore it altogether. I have a Marantz PM7000N and have used the phono, but upgraded to a Pro-Ject Tube Box S2 with modded Mullards. The Pro-Ject derived more low-end punch and HF detail, plus it has several gain settings. So, I would recommend that upgrade. But the Marantz was quite good. I would like to know if more info is available about built-ins.
 

SoNic

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I usually look at the schematics if I can find them...
Most of the time you're finding that the stage in a flagship AVR is very similar with what you get in a stand alone.
Denon reuses the same MM preamp in their latest models, it is rated at 74 dB SNR... Usually on modern models is just an OpAmp stage, but pretty good IMO. Not great, but not horrible.
Attached is a typical stage in Denon AVRs.
 

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GSHastings

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I found some specs for the Marantz integrated phono preamp in the PM7000N. And they mention that it is a new improved design using FET input stage.

Input Sensitivity: MM 2.0 mV / 47 kΩ/kohms
Signal to Noise Ratio: MM 87 dB (5 mV input, 1 W output)

I'm not able to hear any significant difference between the mani and the built in. So, I've decided to just go with the built in. It's MM only, but I don't anticipate spending the money on a MC cartridge.
 

antcollinet

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Bringing this one back from the dead, but I have a denon x4700h, a lower model than OP's flagship. I was wondering if I have the same or a worse built in phono amp vs OP's flagship model and if I might need to upgrade the phono amp. I noticed that I really have to crank up the volume when listening to records.

I normally have heos/spotify playing around 45-47 absolute decibals where the phono needs to be 65-70 to match volume.

- Project debut carbon evo, jr, esq, cpa
- Sumiko Rainer cartridge (MM)
- Svs prime pinnacle 2.1 with sb-3000

Should I start looking for a new phono amp?

Also, another question, but I see so many people saying the best listening modes for records are Direct or Pure sound modes (audyssey calibration defeated), but it just sounds better and louder in Stereo mode with audyssey enabled. Direct/pure on Phono sounds a bit flat or crushed in sparkle or details. Stereo mode on Phono isn't as rich and full as on heos/spotify, but noticeablt more than Direct mode on Phono. Is this some kind of purity for the sake of it? The room calibration should just bring out the frequencies that might otherwise be crushed by my room, why wouldn't I want that? I am genuinely curious and I have been listening to records solely on Direct but I'm about ready to stop that practice now or maybe I need a new phono stage/amp.
This is fairly typical. If for example your phono pre is 40dB gain (x 100) that 5mv cartridge will be amplified to 500mV or 1/2 volt. This is much lower than a typical 2V output for a CD player for example. 12dB lower - and that depends also on the cutting of the vinyl - and how "loud" it is cut.

According to this page, your denon may have an input level setting that you could use to increse the volume of the phono input:
 

Smitty2k1

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I found some specs for the Marantz integrated phono preamp in the PM7000N. And they mention that it is a new improved design using FET input stage.

Input Sensitivity: MM 2.0 mV / 47 kΩ/kohms
Signal to Noise Ratio: MM 87 dB (5 mV input, 1 W output)

I'm not able to hear any significant difference between the mani and the built in. So, I've decided to just go with the built in. It's MM only, but I don't anticipate spending the money on a MC cartridge.
I'm also considering ditching my fairly low end standalone Phono-pre, a Bellari VP 130 with fake little tube: https://rolls.com/doc/manuals/manual_VP130.pdf and instead using the built in Phono-pre on my Denon x3500. I'm assuming I wouldn't notice the difference and it reduces some clutter. But that Bellari unit does look neat with the little tube...
 

GSHastings

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I'm also considering ditching my fairly low end standalone Phono-pre, a Bellari VP 130 with fake little tube: https://rolls.com/doc/manuals/manual_VP130.pdf and instead using the built in Phono-pre on my Denon x3500. I'm assuming I wouldn't notice the difference and it reduces some clutter. But that Bellari unit does look neat with the little tube...
I just don't have enough experience listening to my vinyl to be able to hear minor differences. It's not like I've been listening to the same records for years. I inherited some LP's from my dad a few years ago, and that got me re-interested in vinyl, and hifi in general. So, I've been slowly building my small vinyl collection, and improving my system for the last few years.

On the other hand, when I recently got my Marantz PM7000N, after using a Sony AVR for years, it was like I had a whole new digital music library. Not only did my favorites sound a lot better, and different, but I have found new enjoyment from some music that I had not really liked before.
 

SoNic

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Marantz PM7000N
A dedicated stereo amp will be better built than a costumer grade multichannel AVR that costs the same (or less).
This is the schematic of the phono stage in your Marantz PM7000N, differential pairs of J-fet in front of a "normal" OpAmp stage, yielding better SNR (87 dB VS 74 dB usual value for Denon):

1679415711748.png



Denon x3500

Your phono stage has just the OpAmps, so slightly higher noise levels than above Marantz one... Specs also tell that story.
1679416544908.png
 
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GSHastings

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A dedicated stereo amp will be better built than a costumer grade multichannel AVR that costs the same (or less).
This is the schematic of the phono stage in your Marantz PM7000N, differential pairs of J-fet in front of a "normal" OpAmp stage, yielding better SNR (87 dB VS 74 dB usual value for Denon):

View attachment 273586




Your phono stage has just the OpAmps, so slightly higher noise levels than above Marantz one... Specs also tell that story.
View attachment 273592


Thanks for the additional info.

It seems like the Mani 2 might have noticeably better performance than my Marantz integrated preamp.

Specs for Mani 2 at the MM setting I have set on my Mani:
Gain 1 = L, Gain 2 = H (Standard MM Mode)
Gain: 42dB
THD: <0.0006%, A-weighted, ref 2V RMS
SNR: >98dB, A-weighted, ref 2V RMS
Crosstalk: -90dB, 20-20kHz
Sensitivity: 1.9mV for 300mV output
Overload Margin: >20dB

The Schiit website states that the Mani 2 has 10 - 15 dB lower noise than the original Mani. So I'm guessing that would put it about the equivalent to my Marantz integral.
 

SoNic

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Thanks for the additional info.

It seems like the Mani 2 might have noticeably better performance than my Marantz integrated preamp.

Specs for Mani 2 at the MM setting I have set on my Mani:
Gain 1 = L, Gain 2 = H (Standard MM Mode)
Gain: 42dB
THD: <0.0006%, A-weighted, ref 2V RMS
SNR: >98dB, A-weighted, ref 2V RMS
Crosstalk: -90dB, 20-20kHz
Sensitivity: 1.9mV for 300mV output
Overload Margin: >20dB

The Schiit website states that the Mani 2 has 10 - 15 dB lower noise than the original Mani. So I'm guessing that would put it about the equivalent to my Marantz integral.
Mani 2 has good potential, three per channel newer Jfet input OpAmps...
 

GSHastings

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Mani 2 has good potential, three per channel newer Jfet input OpAmps...
I contacted Schiit customer support to get the spec sheet for the original Mani. Surprisingly, they couldn't come up with it from their internal sources. But they sent me this link to a review that has the specs.

https://latestintech.com/schiit-mani-review/

These are the specs for the Mani as I have it configured:

Gain 1 = L, Gain 2 = H (Standard MM Mode)
Gain: 42dB
TBD: A-weighted, at 1 V RMS
SNR: >82dB, A-weighted, inputs shorted
Crosstalk: -75dB, 20-20kHz
Sensitivity: 2.3mV for 300mV output
Overload Margin: >20dB

Based on the specs, I think I'm probably right in assuming that my Marantz integrated preamp is at least as good as the Mani, possibly a little better.
 

PHD

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The phono stage is the least problematic section of a 100-year-old ancient, and limited analog technology of a turntable. The turntable's weakest link is the turntable itself, not the RIAA eq and preamp. You're OK with whatever phono stage you have on a good-quality AVR, such as the one you have...
 

GSHastings

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The phono stage is the least problematic section of a 100-year-old ancient, and limited analog technology of a turntable. The turntable's weakest link is the turntable itself, not the RIAA eq and preamp. You're OK with whatever phono stage you have on a good-quality AVR, such as the one you have...
Ya, I know. The sources of distortion in vinyl music reproduction are numerous. I'm still amazed at how much detailed information can be reproduced by essentially dragging a pointy stick in a wiggly grove on a piece of plastic.

In my situation, I have two phono preamps in hand, and wanted to satisfy myself that I was choosing the best option. I think the other components in my phono setup are pretty much on the same level as the integrated preamp...Audio Techinica AT-LPW50PB TT with their VM540ML Cartridge/Stylus.

At this point, I doubt that I could improve on that without spending a lot more money than the slight improvements in sound would be worth to my 74 yo ears.
 

SoNic

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I'm still amazed at how much detailed information can be reproduced by essentially dragging a pointy stick in a wiggly grove on a piece of plastic.
Because that's not that much different from moving a membrane, attached by a coil, with some electromagnets, suspended by a quasi-linear elastic support, in a magnetic field.
Speakers, headphones have to feed-back mechanisms either...
 

Shannow85

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Hello , sorry if I'm highjacking ng this topic but I have a very similar question with the same avr denon. I think this is a better place for my question than my last topic which has evolved.

To make it short I have the same entry level avr denon and I'm on the fence of getting a Yamaha as1100. The sound from the avr phono is ok except a few LP record that clips badly even though new but it might be the recording itself ( the shadows album especially). But it's difficult to get a good grasp of getting the best sound without a/b in situ.

I did do a test digital vs vinyl/phono on the amp and I'm getting a +2db in bass and a +3bd at least in high frequency (could it be clipping?). I have no doubt it won't be night and day difference between the Yamaha and the denon but even a minute difference would be nice to have. I fancy the Yamaha overall but if there's absolutely no difference whatsoever in phono amp to the denon it makes an expensive move for just more trouble (speaker switcher etc...).

Btw my setup is sl1210mk2 -> s660h -> aria 948 (and cc900 for HC don't care about 5.1). Cartridge is goldring 1012gx and I do have a blue ortofon.

Edit: also I'm going nuts over some weird artifact. When listening to cymbals type frequency it sounds like chopped/underwater type sound it's awful. No matter if it's vinyl, hdmi, Bluetooth direct mode....
 
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